Hi all,

Rumour has it that now that Livingstone has ordered Private Hire vehicles
(minicabs) have to carry an identifiying sticker on the window, the Royal
Parks Police are pouncing on any who drive through Hyde Park and prosecuting
them under the law which bans signed commercial vehicles from the park!

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"John Rowland" wrote in
:
Rumour has it that now that Livingstone has ordered Private Hire
vehicles (minicabs) have to carry an identifiying sticker on the
window, the Royal Parks Police are pouncing on any who drive through
Hyde Park and prosecuting them under the law which bans signed
commercial vehicles from the park!

So what is the the problem. If the law bans comercial vehicles then
the police are correct to "pounce on them".




--
Andrew Black
andrewblack at despammed.com
London

"John Rowland" wrote:

Rumour has it that now that Livingstone has ordered Private Hire vehicles
(minicabs) have to carry an identifiying sticker on the window, the Royal
Parks Police are pouncing on any who drive through Hyde Park and prosecuting
them under the law which bans signed commercial vehicles from the park!

The law (section 4(27) of the Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces Regulations
1997 http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1997/97163901.htm) prohibits
unauthorised persons from "drive or ride any vehicle which is constructed,
adapted or in use for the purpose of a trade or business", whether the
vehicle is signed or not (people who use vans for personal trips take note
-- the regulation says "constructed *or* adapted *or* in use" for trade --
if it's a van it's not allowed in, even if you're not using it for business
at the time).

Minicabs, as vehicles used for carrying on a business, have always been
prohibited from entering any of the Royal Parks (Hyde Park, Kensington
Gardens, St. James' Park, Green Park, Regent's Park, Greenwich Park,
Richmond Park and Bushy Park -- as well as various other places that don't
have any roads and so aren't relevant here). The new licensing of minicabs
doesn't make them any more or less allowed into the parks, it just makes
them easier to spot.

There is a specific regulation (Part 1(1) of Schedule 2 of the regulations)
that allows taxis to enter the parks, but not to ply for trade (because that
would be a breach of regulation 4(6).

Wishing you'd never asked?


Matt Ashby
www.mattashby.com

"Matt Ashby" wrote in message
om...

Wishing you'd never asked?

Not at all, thanks. I suppose motorcycle couriers are banned from the parks
as well.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"Andrew Black (delete obvious bit)" wrote in
message ...
"John Rowland" wrote in
:
Rumour has it that now that Livingstone has ordered Private Hire
vehicles (minicabs) have to carry an identifiying sticker on the
window, the Royal Parks Police are pouncing on any who drive through
Hyde Park and prosecuting them under the law which bans signed
commercial vehicles from the park!

So what is the the problem. If the law bans comercial vehicles then
the police are correct to "pounce on them".


The problem is that the prohibition is absurd - why not allow minicabs in
the park?

John Rowland wrote:
"Matt Ashby" wrote in message
om...

Wishing you'd never asked?

Not at all, thanks. I suppose motorcycle couriers are banned from the
parks as well.

Indeed they are. There was a case highlighted in the press a number of years
ago when motorcycle couriers from one of the major companys were knicked for
being in one of the parks. The riders were wearing printed reflective
tabards and had the usual stickers. A couple of the bosses decided to go
horse riding in the royal parks, wearing the comnpanys printed tabard etc.

A horse is not a vehicle so plod couild do nothing.

"umpston" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Black (delete obvious bit)" wrote
in
message ...
"John Rowland" wrote in
:
Rumour has it that now that Livingstone has ordered Private Hire
vehicles (minicabs) have to carry an identifiying sticker on the
window, the Royal Parks Police are pouncing on any who drive through
Hyde Park and prosecuting them under the law which bans signed
commercial vehicles from the park!

So what is the the problem. If the law bans comercial vehicles then
the police are correct to "pounce on them".

Only if it's a good law.

The problem is that the prohibition is absurd - why not allow minicabs in
the park?

Ah: someone who's prepared to challenge the law rather than just parrot its
details and absurdities. Just because something is enshrined in law doesn't
mean that it's a good law. In my mind, every law, every speed limit, every
restriction should be subject to public scrutiny and accountability, and if
it can no longer be justified in its current form it should be abolished or
amended to punish those you want to punish and to have no effect on those
you want to permit.

Yes, prohibit HGVs and maybe large delivery vans from Royal Parks, and
restrict when/where ice cream vans etc can trade: when you're sitting in the
tranquillity of a Royal Park, you don't want noisy/smelly HGVs trying to
negotiate the access roads and you don't want ice-cream chimes or smelly
hot-dog-stall fumes. But why should a car be allowed in if it's a private
car and excluded if the same make/model of car is a taxi? If there is a
demand for taxi journeys to/from the parks, or the park road is the most
direct route between two points, that demand should be satisfied. In my
mind, anywhere that a private car can go, a taxi should be allowed to go and
to ply for trade.

In message ,
Martin Underwood writes
If there is a
demand for taxi journeys to/from the parks, or the park road is the most
direct route between two points, that demand should be satisfied. In my
mind, anywhere that a private car can go, a taxi should be allowed to go and
to ply for trade.

Taxis *are* allowed to use the royal parks. They can and *do* ply for
hire in the royal parks. They received special dispensation to use the
parks with the liveried taxis.

I believe that the Public Carriage Office have raised the question of
*licensed* Private Hire vehicles (minicabs) being prosecuted for using
the parks so that the matter can be properly resolved one way or the
other.

In the case of taxis, they re supposed to use take the *shortest* route
to their destination (unless the customer agrees to a different route).
As taxis have meters any longer route will cost more. Minicabs do not
have meters and many of them quote a fixed price for the job.

There is a vast difference in the knowledge requirements between the two
of course. This is reflected in the fact that taxis can use most (but
not all) of the bus lanes, to encourage people to use them in preference
to their cars.


--
Mike Hughes
A Taxi driver licensed for London and Brighton
at home in Tarring, West Sussex, England

"Mike Hughes" wrote in message
...
In message ,
Martin Underwood writes
If there is a
demand for taxi journeys to/from the parks, or the park road is the most
direct route between two points, that demand should be satisfied. In my
mind, anywhere that a private car can go, a taxi should be allowed to go
and
to ply for trade.

Taxis *are* allowed to use the royal parks. They can and *do* ply for
hire in the royal parks. They received special dispensation to use the
parks with the liveried taxis.

I believe that the Public Carriage Office have raised the question of
*licensed* Private Hire vehicles (minicabs) being prosecuted for using
the parks so that the matter can be properly resolved one way or the
other.

In the case of taxis, they re supposed to use take the *shortest* route
to their destination (unless the customer agrees to a different route).
As taxis have meters any longer route will cost more. Minicabs do not
have meters and many of them quote a fixed price for the job.

There is a vast difference in the knowledge requirements between the two
of course. This is reflected in the fact that taxis can use most (but
not all) of the bus lanes, to encourage people to use them in preference
to their cars.

Ah, so the information in the OP was incorrect - I was just quoting it and
assuming that it was correct.

What precisely is the difference between a taxi and a minicab? Do minicabs
have to carry a licensing plate (quoting registration number and maximum
number of occupants) like taxis do? How does a user know whether he's
getting into a taxi or a minicab?

Having only rarely used "taxis" (in the widest sense of the word) I'd
assumed that all such vehicles charged by distance (with surcharges for
number of people, for night-time and for en-route waiting time) - I hadn't
realised that minicabs negotiate an up-front charge. I believe that taxis
are allowed to be hailed in the street by passing pedestrians, whereas
minicabs can only be hired by phone to pick up at a stated address, but I'm
sure whenever I've booked "a taxi" to call for me at home, it's always had a
meter and I've been charged exactly what is described on that meter.

In message ,
Martin Underwood writes
"Mike Hughes" wrote in message
...
In message ,
Martin Underwood writes
If there is a
demand for taxi journeys to/from the parks, or the park road is the most
direct route between two points, that demand should be satisfied. In my
mind, anywhere that a private car can go, a taxi should be allowed to go
and
to ply for trade.

Taxis *are* allowed to use the royal parks. They can and *do* ply for
hire in the royal parks. They received special dispensation to use the
parks with the liveried taxis.

I believe that the Public Carriage Office have raised the question of
*licensed* Private Hire vehicles (minicabs) being prosecuted for using
the parks so that the matter can be properly resolved one way or the
other.

In the case of taxis, they re supposed to use take the *shortest* route
to their destination (unless the customer agrees to a different route).
As taxis have meters any longer route will cost more. Minicabs do not
have meters and many of them quote a fixed price for the job.

There is a vast difference in the knowledge requirements between the two
of course. This is reflected in the fact that taxis can use most (but
not all) of the bus lanes, to encourage people to use them in preference
to their cars.

Ah, so the information in the OP was incorrect - I was just quoting it and
assuming that it was correct.

What precisely is the difference between a taxi and a minicab? Do minicabs
have to carry a licensing plate (quoting registration number and maximum
number of occupants) like taxis do? How does a user know whether he's
getting into a taxi or a minicab?

Let's deal with London first.

London's taxis have to comply with the PCO's 'Conditions of Fitness' to
be licensed as a taxi. The one that most people will know about is the
25ft turning circle - ideal for getting through some of the narrow
streets in the City and also for making U turns. This is why they are of
a specific shape and size and what makes them unique.

They must have an approved meter which is sealed by the PCO. They have
the right to 'ply for hire' (with a lighted sign on the roof) either on
the street or at authorised taxi ranks. The driver must have been police
(now CRB) checked, medically fit, of good character and have passed the
'knowledge' of London which takes on average 3 years.[1]

'Minicabs' were, until recently (2001 I believe) totally unlicensed
vehicles. There was no regulation of them and the drivers would often
not have insurance. Many of the drivers had criminal convictions. There
was in one year (2003) 233 cases of indecent assault and 54 rapes
*reported*. It is believed that the true figure is at least five times
those numbers as many victims do not report the assaults/rapes.

Minicab licensing started with the companies, who were first to be
registered, then with the drivers and now (since June 2004) the
vehicles. I know of one minicab firm who lost 21 out of a total of 140
drivers when licensing became effective in 2003. Apparently the reasons
given included questionable immigration status, criminal records and
income tax status!

Since licensing has taken place, the new 'Private Hire' minicabs are
having to pay better rates to retain or recruit licensed drivers. This,
coupled with other costs associated with licensing means that most have
raised their prices considerably. In fact many minicabs are more
expensive that the traditional taxi (known as 'black cabs') !!

Private Hire vehicles in London are identified by a yellow disc with a
diamond shaped licence which is displayed on the front and rear window
of the vehicle. (too small to be read unless you're standing less than 2
ft from the vehicle). They cannot ply for hire and *must* be pre-booked.
Many still pick up from the streets, and in these cases their insurance
immediately becomes invalid, no matter if they have one which covers
'for hire and reward' as the insurance is only valid for pre-booked
jobs.

Having only rarely used "taxis" (in the widest sense of the word) I'd
assumed that all such vehicles charged by distance (with surcharges for
number of people, for night-time and for en-route waiting time) - I hadn't
realised that minicabs negotiate an up-front charge.

They don't always do so, but legally the fare should be negotiated at
the start of the hiring. This can be per mile, for time, for the whole
job or any combination (you can also negotiate with a taxi but they
cannot legally charge more than the amount on the meter unless the
journey starts or finishes outside the taxi's licensing area).

I believe that taxis
are allowed to be hailed in the street by passing pedestrians, whereas
minicabs can only be hired by phone to pick up at a stated address, but I'm
sure whenever I've booked "a taxi" to call for me at home, it's always had a
meter and I've been charged exactly what is described on that meter.


There are some places where the Private Hire vehicles work alongside
taxis (Brighton and Hove is one). The PH vehicles also have meters which
are usually set at the same rate as the taxis. I don't know what the
situation is where you live.

[1] I recently wrote an article for TAXI "talk" magazine about the
knowledge of London. If any one is interested send me a request to my
e-mail address and I'll send it by return. It is quite long - it took up
6 pages of the magazine so you have been warned :-)

Mike

--
Mike Hughes
A Taxi driver licensed for London and Brighton
at home in Tarring, West Sussex, England