On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Firstly, what, if any, effect has the charge had on safety? Are there
fewer road casualties in central London now? More? Have they been
displaced? Anyone know of any data?

Motorcycle and bicycle casualties are down while numbers are up.

Ah, good!

It's not obvious whether it's the increased numbers (making them more
visible and noticed) or the reduced number of cars that has caused this.

Good point. I'm not sure how you could figure that out; presumably, the
spike in cycling after the 7/7 bombings, which i assume was not associated
with a drop in driving, could be analysed to see if it led to reduced
casualties, which would at least give a hint.

tom

--
wit, speed, and dressing well

Colum Mylod wrote:
The extension will include zone 2 so your fears of an extension too
far are well grounded.

Impossible to have an extension too far. IMHO the boundary for the
congestion charge should be the M25, with a minimum charge of £50.

[Ken's] evil
brain has postulated widening to the Circulars...

If I had any doubts about voting for Ken next time, those doubts have
now been erased.

Patrick

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 21:38:43 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Colum Mylod wrote:

Oh don't worry, your local shops will be wiped out but you'll have
uncharged access to BrentX and the "Westfield" aka White City complex.
So that's all right then. And Oxford Street can decline to cater for
tourists, tram or no tram.

So Colum, how many people get to Oxford Street by car, then?

No hard numbers but the report (looking for it) favouring the tram and
an improvement to Oxford St did state the White City complex would
pull the west/north of London big spenders away from the street. No
details were given if they were users of car parks nearby or how they
got there.

--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

On 5 Oct 2006 01:07:55 -0700, wrote:


Colum Mylod wrote:
The extension will include zone 2 so your fears of an extension too
far are well grounded.

Impossible to have an extension too far. IMHO the boundary for the
congestion charge should be the M25, with a minimum charge of £50.

Offer that one up in a democratic system and see how it flies. It
could happen but only under a dictator.

[Ken's] evil
brain has postulated widening to the Circulars...

If I had any doubts about voting for Ken next time, those doubts have
now been erased.
You don't mind sham consulting, pre-election promises broken..

--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

Colum Mylod wrote:
On 4 Oct 2006 07:04:01 -0700, "Earl Purple"
wrote:

Does the route then follow Barlby Road (not even a classified road) or
does it head along the B412 (St Quintin Avenue, St Marks Road and
Cambridge Gardens) up to Ladbroke Grove. Most of these are fairly
narrow residential streets.
The boundary will be formed by the railway line that crosses over
North Pole Road so Barlby Road etc will be inside and chargeable (but
the cameras are at NPole Rd and at the top of Ladbroke Grove where the
roundabout leads to Sainsbury's, allowing free access to the big
shop). Oddly the camera before that rbt seems to cover entrance but
not exit. The side streets bordering Wood Lane will be uncharged but
residents there will have access to the 90% discount.

But for how far? What about residents around Du Cane Road etc. that
might normally use that Sainsbury's. They would no longer be able to
use North Pole Road / Barlby Road but would have to divert all the way
around up Scrubs Lane, right onto Harrow Road then right again into
Ladbroke Grove. Now won't that cause more congestion rather than reduce
it?

In that neck of the woods almost all of K&C is inside except the bits
to the south of the Harrow Road towards Sainsbos. My guess is that the
few pinch points were chosen as the edge with Sainos arguing
successfully for exemption. The xM41 and Westway will not be covered,
which could be interesting if the new shopping centre gains a few new
roads into K&C territory.

The thing is that I think many people in London don't object to the
congestion charge in the centre so much because there is fairly good
public transport to the centre - after all the underground lines do all
go to the centre of London.
Also that zone has few residents, the initial CC affected few ordinary
bods. The extended one will scalp more peeps. The buses are better for
the investment they've received.

There are quite a few mainly residential areas in the current CC zone:

- Most of what is North of Clerkenwell Road. They might have made the
CC zone instead go along Kings Cross Road / Farringdon Road up to the
junction of Clerkenwell Road then along that road and Old Street
instead of Pentonville Road / City Road.

- Most of Lambeth. Thus the zone could have gone up Albert Embankment
then along Lambeth Road.

The issues are not so much with those in the zone but with those just
outside who now have to pay the full charge to access what is inside.
Perhaps the solution is to have multiple charging zones, give residents
totally free access to their own zone and any immediate neighbouring
one, thus you have to cross through 2 zone boundaries before you have
to pay.

An example of a facility across the boundary is the Brunswick Shopping
Centre around Marchmont Street, WC1. This is just inside and used to
have (don't know if it's still there) a big supermarket. Those who
lived in Somers Town would probably have used it. Now those who live in
Somers Town would probably go up to the Sainsbury's in Camden or the
Morrison's in Chalk Farm instead.

I'd like to mention the system I saw in Madrid: bodies on the ground
enforcing local access only for locals and limited deliveries - but
there's no profit in that scheme is there?

Not sure I like the idea either. Taking away people's freedom. Not
saying that people shouldn't have to pay to drive in, but it should
still be an option.

The CC is about money:
Capita fill their boots and some sloshes to Ken. It is not a user
friendly setup either: no lights to say the zone is active, no easy
way to pay automatically after the event, in fact it appears to be
designed to make money from non-payment. And an open charter for plate
cloning or plain reregistering of the car in Poland or Latvia.

For Capita it might be. For the point of view of Tfl, the money is
redistributed - Ken does not directly pocket any of it himself. (Whilst
I have some reservations about Ken on many issues, I don't think he's a
thief).

I would rather pay a reasonable amount to have a smooth journey than
pay nothing but sit for hours in traffic. After all, time is money.

My own solution, albeit probably not too practical, would be to build
some more decent by-passes and charge for using them. The toll would
not be excessive, but even 50p a day for 60,000 users, say, would raise
£30,000 a day.

Well it's fine, they can just make every road in London private flats
and have no facilities. More and more facilities are being replaced
with private flats anyway. Hardly surprising then that to access
facilities you can no longer find any in walking distance and have to
get into your car...
London is quite poor for local walkable facilities. I've lived in
places with far more on the ground locally (and much safer bike lanes
than mere blobs of paint) but London is focused on cars + shopping
areas.

It's all based on profit and who will make the highest bid. The big
property developers can easily outbid anyone else. Suburban London is a
very popular place to live.

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Earl Purple wrote:

The issues are not so much with those in the zone but with those just
outside who now have to pay the full charge to access what is inside.
Perhaps the solution is to have multiple charging zones, give residents
totally free access to their own zone and any immediate neighbouring
one, thus you have to cross through 2 zone boundaries before you have to
pay.

Makes sense - although having a you-count-as-residents neutral zone around
a charging zone has much the same effect.

An example of a facility across the boundary is the Brunswick Shopping
Centre around Marchmont Street, WC1. This is just inside and used to
have (don't know if it's still there) a big supermarket.

There is - it recently reopened as a Waitrose. I bought a couple of
bottles of Bordeaux blanc there only this week.

Those who lived in Somers Town would probably have used it. Now those
who live in Somers Town would probably go up to the Sainsbury's in
Camden or the Morrison's in Chalk Farm instead.

You're kidding, right? It's a straightforward walk, or a few minutes on a
bus. Driving there from Somers Town would be insane, even without the
charge.

I'd like to mention the system I saw in Madrid: bodies on the ground
enforcing local access only for locals and limited deliveries - but
there's no profit in that scheme is there?

Not sure I like the idea either. Taking away people's freedom.

Sigh. Taking away one set of people's freedom to drive their cars wherever
they like, and bringing a new freedom to walk to another, larger, set of
people. I'd be in favour of that.

tom

--
see im down wid yo sci fi crew

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Colum Mylod wrote:

On 5 Oct 2006 01:07:55 -0700, wrote:

Colum Mylod wrote:

The extension will include zone 2 so your fears of an extension too
far are well grounded.

Impossible to have an extension too far. IMHO the boundary for the
congestion charge should be the M25, with a minimum charge of £50.

Offer that one up in a democratic system and see how it flies.

I'd vote for it.

Although ideally the zone would stop just beyond my house - otherwise it
makes it more likely that people from outside will drive in!

It could happen but only under a dictator.

I love the way that you equate your preferencs with the will of the
majority.

tom

--
see im down wid yo sci fi crew

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Colum Mylod wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 21:38:43 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Colum Mylod wrote:

Oh don't worry, your local shops will be wiped out but you'll have
uncharged access to BrentX and the "Westfield" aka White City complex.
So that's all right then. And Oxford Street can decline to cater for
tourists, tram or no tram.

So Colum, how many people get to Oxford Street by car, then?

No hard numbers

Right.

but the report (looking for it) favouring the tram and
an improvement to Oxford St did state the White City complex would pull
the west/north of London big spenders away from the street. No details
were given if they were users of car parks nearby or how they got there.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with car use, then.

tom

--
see im down wid yo sci fi crew

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Earl Purple wrote:

The issues are not so much with those in the zone but with those just
outside who now have to pay the full charge to access what is inside.
Perhaps the solution is to have multiple charging zones, give residents
totally free access to their own zone and any immediate neighbouring
one, thus you have to cross through 2 zone boundaries before you have to
pay.

Makes sense - although having a you-count-as-residents neutral zone around
a charging zone has much the same effect.

Not quite. If a resident "just outside" is given the privelege of going
into the whole zone, then they can now start driving right across it,
as would be the case for any residents of Notting Hill, who were
previously outside of the zone but now having been pulled inside it may
be more inclined to use their cars even when going into the old zone.

An example of a facility across the boundary is the Brunswick Shopping
Centre around Marchmont Street, WC1. This is just inside and used to
have (don't know if it's still there) a big supermarket.

There is - it recently reopened as a Waitrose. I bought a couple of
bottles of Bordeaux blanc there only this week.

Those who lived in Somers Town would probably have used it. Now those
who live in Somers Town would probably go up to the Sainsbury's in
Camden or the Morrison's in Chalk Farm instead.

You're kidding, right? It's a straightforward walk, or a few minutes on a
bus. Driving there from Somers Town would be insane, even without the
charge.

Yes but depends on how much you want to buy. For a big shopping trip,
it may be a big problem carrying it all home on the bus. Yes, you can
get home-delivery if they happen to have everything that they stock
listed on the website.

I'd like to mention the system I saw in Madrid: bodies on the ground
enforcing local access only for locals and limited deliveries - but
there's no profit in that scheme is there?

Not sure I like the idea either. Taking away people's freedom.

Sigh. Taking away one set of people's freedom to drive their cars wherever
they like, and bringing a new freedom to walk to another, larger, set of
people. I'd be in favour of that.

Actually I'd be in favour of having the road in which I live as a
through road for the residents only. That means having a gate somewhere
blocking through access for most vehicles but given residents a means
to open it. Emergency services would also have a device to open such
gates. Residents riding in cabs could open it for the cab driver.
Delivery vans would generally not have through access unless a resident
opened it for them. There could be certain times at which the gate is
open anyway and there would be a gap for cyclists at all times.

Of course that would also mean I would not be able to use other
rat-runs if they put up similar schemes.

Some pedestrianised areas have hours during which delivery vehicles are
allowed access.

Tom Anderson wrote:
So Colum, how many people get to Oxford Street by car, then?

Many did before the congestion charge zone was brought in. There is a
car-park at Cavendish Square and meters on many of the side roads. I
did notice in February 2003 how much easier it became to find a meter.

At that point in time the parking rate was only £3 an hour. If there
are 2 people going in and doing a fair amount of shopping it is not a
bad option.

I still use car to get to Oxford Street to shop on bank holidays when
parking is free and there is no congestion charge.