"Larry Lard" wrote in message
...


If after dealing with them you need to go higher still, I think there is
an ombudsman-type organisation called the LRPC or somesuch. Or wait, maybe
that's only the big trains...


London Travelwatch - and they cover all London travel modes - even
streets...

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/

Paul

Larry Lard wrote:

Sam wrote:
"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In message , Larry Lard
writes
Complain away...
And do let us know the result....... :-)
--

Any pointers who to complain to.

The Revenue Protection Manager who I spoke to on the phone said he
supervised all inspectors on duty at Liverpool Street . I don't really want
to speak to him again, as he said I definately required a photocard, he was
pretty rude as well.

Anyone higher up than him ?

Just to confirm that all this happened in the Underground station at
Liverpool Street (I think you said that in your OP). If so, I would go for

Customer Service Centre
London Underground
55 Broadway
London
SW1H 0BD

If after dealing with them you need to go higher still, I think there is
an ombudsman-type organisation called the LRPC or somesuch. Or wait,
maybe that's only the big trains...


London TravelWatch - formerly the LTUC - is the official watchdog for
public transport in London. But they'll only take your complaint if
you've already complained to the operator at fault (in your case LU)
and not received a satisfactory answer.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...

Sam wrote:

"tkd" wrote in message
...
A quick question regarding the need for photocards with Oysters.

I have an Annual Oystercard and accompanying Gold Record Card. I also
have a very old photocard which used to be used when I would get a
monthly paper season ticket.

Yesterday at Liverpool Street station (LU side) I was stopped by a
non-uniformed ticket inspector, she went through all my tickets and
said
I needed a photocard with my Goldcard. She was very very persistant
that
I needed one. I asked if you still needed one with Oystercards, which
she replied of course you do.

I went through my wallet and found my old photocard used for
purchasing
paper LU season tickets, which she reluctantly accepted. She spent
ages
scanning my Oyster and looking at the various tickets in my ticket
holder. Hence I missed my connecting train (Very tight transfer time I
know), however I don't think my Oystercard is related to my photocard
in
any way.

I spoke to various staff at different stations today who all said "you
do
not need a photocard with a Oystercard". Ready to make a complaint, I
just spoke to a Revenue Protection Manager on the phone who covers
Liverpool Street who was rude to say the least. He said you must have
a
photocard with an period Oystercard, and that the Inspector was right
and
I was wrong.

Obviously I did'nt take it further as he implied he knows everything
about tickets. Setting aside the fact the inspector was very rude,
was
she correct ?


Any thoughts .....

When they first launched Oyster card for annual seasons (sometime in
August 2003 I think it was) I had to supply my photocard number.
Sometime
after that they changed the rules so you do not need a photocard with a
normal adult Oyster. This photocard number continued to appear on my
online oyster account for that card for some time after that, but it
appears to be no longer on there. Other Oyster cards registered after
this
date had "XXXXX" or something like that in the photocard field. Where
an
Oyster card needs a photocard (such as a student discount) it is
physically part of the card. i.e. the Oyster card and the photocard are
the same thing.

I, and other people I know, have been told a variety of crap from NR
staff
regarding Oyster including:

1) Oyster loaded with season tickets are not valid on National Rail
(Silverlink)
2) Oyster pay as you go not valid on sections of NR where it is valid
(Thameslink Farringdon-London Bridge)
3) Gold record card required to be carried or Oyster-charged season is
not
valid, despite the record card displaying "NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL". (c2c)

You can take whatever they say with a pinch of salt.


This wasn't NR staff though. This was LU Revenue Protection staff, not
only
the female doing the checks, but also her manager who I spoke to on the
phone. Neither of them knew / were aware that you no longer required a
photocard with an Oyster.

I spoke to LU customer services who have e-mailed me the relevent web
link.
Any idea who to address my letter to ?

Wow, so not only did the LU Revenue Protection Inspector (RPI) who
hassled you not know the rules, her boss didn't know the rules either!
I can believe this happening with RPI staff working for a train
company, but I'm pretty surprised it's the case with an LU RPI, and
shocked that the LU manager doesn't know what their talking about.

You can submit failry specific complaints via the online feedback
form...
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/form.asp

...but I think in some situations such as this sending a letter has
more force to it. Send it to:

Customer Service Centre
London Underground
55 Broadway
London
SW1H 0BD

(found on http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/)

I'm sure you know this already but I'll say it anyway - include as much
detail as you can - the date, the time, the RPIs name if known/ if not
perhaps what they looked like, the precise location where you were
checked, what number you called to complain, and the name of the
manager that you spoke to, and perhaps include your Oyster card number
as well as your details.

It sounds like you've been treated shabbily by people who should know
better - do come back to utl and post a follow up when you get a
response.


The manager who I spoke to on the phone gave me the impression he was very
high up. When I said I wanted to check the conditions with Goldcards and
then if I was correct, make a complaint about an RPI, he said "Well I look
after all the RPI's on SSL". I took this to mean the Sub Surface Lines.
Would that be correct ?

He sounded really annoyed that I was questioning one of his staff, and then
said that the Photocard was required. The one thing that really irritates
me is that if I had thrown away my old photocard, the RPI would have given
me a fine / penalty notice etc.

If I pursue this any further, I am scared they will have my details on file
as a trouble maker, and could cause me problems further down the line.

The RPI had a real attitude as well, when she was satisfied that I had every
ticket, oyster, photocard I could possibly have, she walked away holding my
Goldcard. When I said "Hang on a minute can I have all my tickets back" she
through her arms in the air and gave me my ticket back. No apology for the
hold up, may be she was irritated that she hadn't caught a fare evader (A
was wearing a baseball cap, unshaven, bit scruffy may be !!!!!).

Sam wrote:


The manager who I spoke to on the phone gave me the impression he was very
high up. When I said I wanted to check the conditions with Goldcards and
then if I was correct, make a complaint about an RPI, he said "Well I look
after all the RPI's on SSL". I took this to mean the Sub Surface Lines.
Would that be correct ?

In such a context then yes SSL would mean sub surface lines - te
District, Metropolitan, East London and Hammersmith & City.

High up managers can get it wrong as well, and remember it is sometimes
the wont of managers to make out they're higher up in the hierachy than
they actually are.


He sounded really annoyed that I was questioning one of his staff, and then
said that the Photocard was required. The one thing that really irritates
me is that if I had thrown away my old photocard, the RPI would have given
me a fine / penalty notice etc.

....which would have meant you would have challenged the fine, it would
have been cancelled and hopefully they would have found out they were
wrong.


If I pursue this any further, I am scared they will have my details on file
as a trouble maker, and could cause me problems further down the line.

No way Sam you really should complain. Unless you've missed out some
critical bit of information, it sounds very much like you've been
wronged. You're not a trouble maker for travelling with a legitimate
ticket and complaining because you were wrongly hassled for doing so.
It will cause you no further problems down the line - it will cause the
RPIs and their managers trouble as they're not doing their job right,
and so it should. Anyway your letter will be dealt with by different
people than the RPI team.


The RPI had a real attitude as well, when she was satisfied that I had every
ticket, oyster, photocard I could possibly have, she walked away holding my
Goldcard. When I said "Hang on a minute can I have all my tickets back" she
through her arms in the air and gave me my ticket back. No apology for the
hold up, may be she was irritated that she hadn't caught a fare evader (A
was wearing a baseball cap, unshaven, bit scruffy may be !!!!!).

Being a scruff is no crime! Perhaps the RPIs thought someone had lent
you their Oyster, as period Travelcards are non-transferable. However
there is no real way they can enforce this unless they look up the
relevent details on the Oyster database and ask you to confirm them -
something I haven't heard ever having happen, though it's technically
possible. (If you were using a borrowed Oyster then I wouldn't recomend
complaining - but it sounds like the card was indeed yours.)

I guess that given the high-value of an annual Travelcard, then if that
Oyster card had been associated with a photocard in the past when
photocards were still a requirement the RPIs might think that asking
for sight of the photocard is one way to trip up those who're misusing
a ticket. But it's not a requirement anymore so everyone who has an
Oyster which has an associated photocard should safely be able to chuch
said photocard away.

In addition the fact that you've been rudely treated is not on, given
that you had a valid ticket.

Write that letter!

Mizter T wrote:

Being a scruff is no crime! Perhaps the RPIs thought someone had lent
you their Oyster, as period Travelcards are non-transferable. However
there is no real way they can enforce this unless they look up the
relevent details on the Oyster database and ask you to confirm them -
something I haven't heard ever having happen, though it's technically
possible. (If you were using a borrowed Oyster then I wouldn't recomend
complaining - but it sounds like the card was indeed yours.)

And even that isn't possible if the Oyster card isn't registered
(although IIRC registration is required for Travelcards valid for longer
than a week).
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:57:36 -0000, "Sam" wrote:

A quick question regarding the need for photocards with Oysters.

I have an Annual Oystercard and accompanying Gold Record Card. I also have
a very old photocard which used to be used when I would get a monthly paper
season ticket.

Yesterday at Liverpool Street station (LU side) I was stopped by a
non-uniformed ticket inspector, she went through all my tickets and said I
needed a photocard with my Goldcard. She was very very persistant that I
needed one. I asked if you still needed one with Oystercards, which she
replied of course you do.

I went through my wallet and found my old photocard used for purchasing
paper LU season tickets, which she reluctantly accepted. She spent ages
scanning my Oyster and looking at the various tickets in my ticket holder.
Hence I missed my connecting train (Very tight transfer time I know),
however I don't think my Oystercard is related to my photocard in any way.

I spoke to various staff at different stations today who all said "you do
not need a photocard with a Oystercard". Ready to make a complaint, I just
spoke to a Revenue Protection Manager on the phone who covers Liverpool
Street who was rude to say the least. He said you must have a photocard
with an period Oystercard, and that the Inspector was right and I was wrong.

Obviously I did'nt take it further as he implied he knows everything about
tickets. Setting aside the fact the inspector was very rude, was she
correct ?

Any thoughts .....

Yes but first a question. What zones / travel is your Annual Oystercard
valid for? I can't see that info in your post and it is absolutely
vital.

I have been through the latest staff document for Fares and Tickets and
what is says is the following :-

A photocard is *not needed* to buy and use any Adult Rate Travelcard or
Bus Pass on Oyster.

A photocard *is needed* to buy or use :-

a) monthly or longer period Travelcards that include validity to a
National Rail station beyond Zones 1-6
b) monthly or longer period Tube only point to point season tickets
(between stations in Zones A-D) issued before 2/1/07 until expiry of
ticket.
c) 7 day, monthly or longer period National Rail only season
ticket.

I assume you are not entitled to a concessionary rate by virtue of age
or participation in the New Deal scheme as for these you must have an
Oyster Photocard?

Before you zap off your complaint an answer to the question I posed
would be very helpful.

As Liverpool St LU is managed as part of the Sub Surface Service
Delivery Unit then it will be SSL staff that you dealt with. I'm not
sure who the Revenue Protection Manager is for SSL these days.

HTH
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

A quick question regarding the need for photocards with Oysters.

I have an Annual Oystercard and accompanying Gold Record Card. I also
have a very old photocard which used to be used when I would get a
monthly paper season ticket.

Yesterday at Liverpool Street station (LU side) I was stopped by a
non-uniformed ticket inspector, she went through all my tickets and said
I needed a photocard with my Goldcard. She was very very persistant
that I needed one. I asked if you still needed one with Oystercards,
which she replied of course you do.

I went through my wallet and found my old photocard used for purchasing
paper LU season tickets, which she reluctantly accepted. She spent ages
scanning my Oyster and looking at the various tickets in my ticket
holder. Hence I missed my connecting train (Very tight transfer time I
know), however I don't think my Oystercard is related to my photocard in
any way.

I spoke to various staff at different stations today who all said "you
do not need a photocard with a Oystercard". Ready to make a complaint,
I just spoke to a Revenue Protection Manager on the phone who covers
Liverpool Street who was rude to say the least. He said you must have a
photocard with an period Oystercard, and that the Inspector was right
and I was wrong.

Obviously I did'nt take it further as he implied he knows everything
about tickets. Setting aside the fact the inspector was very rude, was
she correct ?


Any thoughts .....

When they first launched Oyster card for annual seasons (sometime in
August 2003 I think it was) I had to supply my photocard number. Sometime
after that they changed the rules so you do not need a photocard with a
normal adult Oyster. This photocard number continued to appear on my
online oyster account for that card for some time after that, but it
appears to be no longer on there. Other Oyster cards registered after
this date had "XXXXX" or something like that in the photocard field.
Where an Oyster card needs a photocard (such as a student discount) it is
physically part of the card. i.e. the Oyster card and the photocard are
the same thing.

I, and other people I know, have been told a variety of crap from NR
staff regarding Oyster including:

1) Oyster loaded with season tickets are not valid on National Rail
(Silverlink)
2) Oyster pay as you go not valid on sections of NR where it is valid
(Thameslink Farringdon-London Bridge)
3) Gold record card required to be carried or Oyster-charged season is
not valid, despite the record card displaying "NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL".
(c2c)

You can take whatever they say with a pinch of salt.


This wasn't NR staff though. This was LU Revenue Protection staff, not
only the female doing the checks, but also her manager who I spoke to on
the phone. Neither of them knew / were aware that you no longer required
a photocard with an Oyster.

I spoke to LU customer services who have e-mailed me the relevent web
link. Any idea who to address my letter to ?

You should definitely complain. LU staff at a major station have no excuse
whatsoever for demanding to see something from you that has been obsolete
for several years.

David of Broadway wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Being a scruff is no crime! Perhaps the RPIs thought someone had lent
you their Oyster, as period Travelcards are non-transferable. However
there is no real way they can enforce this unless they look up the
relevent details on the Oyster database and ask you to confirm them -
something I haven't heard ever having happen, though it's technically
possible. (If you were using a borrowed Oyster then I wouldn't recomend
complaining - but it sounds like the card was indeed yours.)

And even that isn't possible if the Oyster card isn't registered
(although IIRC registration is required for Travelcards valid for longer
than a week).

True. Though as you rightly point out, only 7-day Travelcards are
available on an unregistered Oyster card - anything longer and it needs
to be registered.

asdf wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:09:21 -0000, tkd wrote:

I, and other people I know, have been told a variety of crap from NR staff
regarding Oyster including:

2) Oyster pay as you go not valid on sections of NR where it is valid
(Thameslink Farringdon-London Bridge)

Barrier staff at London Bridge (NR) appear to be under specific
instructions to tell you that PAYG is *not* valid at that station.

The ticket gates there reject PAYG-only Oyster cards, so you have to
go to the manual gate. The staff there say, every time, that PAYG is
not valid, and will only let you in/out after you insist that it is.

Is that still going on? I fell foul of that quite a long time ago.

When I have some spare time soon and am vaguely in the area I'll make
an FCC Thameslink journey starting/finishing at London Bridge to
investigate. If I encounter trouble I'll write to complain about it.

It really doesn't bode well for Oyster being implemented on National
Rail :-(

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ups.com...
asdf wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:09:21 -0000, tkd wrote:

I, and other people I know, have been told a variety of crap from NR
staff
regarding Oyster including:

2) Oyster pay as you go not valid on sections of NR where it is valid
(Thameslink Farringdon-London Bridge)

Barrier staff at London Bridge (NR) appear to be under specific
instructions to tell you that PAYG is *not* valid at that station.

The ticket gates there reject PAYG-only Oyster cards, so you have to
go to the manual gate. The staff there say, every time, that PAYG is
not valid, and will only let you in/out after you insist that it is.

Is that still going on? I fell foul of that quite a long time ago.

When I have some spare time soon and am vaguely in the area I'll make
an FCC Thameslink journey starting/finishing at London Bridge to
investigate. If I encounter trouble I'll write to complain about it.

It really doesn't bode well for Oyster being implemented on National
Rail :-(


Not if it is anything like it is now at c2c stations. When anything went
wrong with PAYG journeys they just keep on touching it on the side gate
validator over and over again as if some special message might appear after
enough tries. The staff at the tickets windows (those with Oyster capable
equipment - about 50%) could not even accurately tell you your balance. I
think they could see the last three PAYG top up amounts and often confused
one of those for the current balance. They could not see any journey history
or remove a last entry/exit from the card, even if it was caused by their
own staff at the gate repeatedly touching the thing on the validator.