On Feb 16, 1:50*pm, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 13:20, Mizter T wrote:
[snip]
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-....

[snip verbatim quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8]

Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.

Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).

I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed

If having to touch in with Oyster travelcards really was strictly
enforced, then there are two issues.

Firstly, it would be a rule invented purely for the purpose of
penalising people for breaking a rule, when no fares are being
evaded. *I look forward to seeing such things tested in court.

Secondly, it would change the NRCoC, and I don't see how TfL or any
other operator can do that. *Specifically, it would render a season
ticket invalid if stored on Oyster and used in combination with
another ticket from outside of its validity.

I suppose they might say that's covered by this in clause 3.6: "You
can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow
card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is
valid for the journey you are making." - the Travelcard being valid as
a result of its combination with another ticket.

The NRCoC does also contain a reference to the separate conditions
that apply to electronic tickets (in clause A.1). If the NRCoC and
conditions that apply to an electronic ticket say different things,
there doesn't appear to be anything which grants either of them
primacy over the other.

Note that I'm absolutely not saying that I think TfL has any intention
to restrict the use of Travelcards on Oyster in combination with other
tickets for journeys beyond the zonal validity of that Travelcard.


So, despite my many misgivings about Oyster, I will be more charitable
than you and stick with the assumption that the exhortations to touch
in are purely practical, to keep people in the habit of doing so, in
case of problems in the situations when they need to.

I don't quite get where your coming from re the "charitable" comment?
I merely referred to what's actually stated in the conditions of use
of Oyster on NR.

FWIW, I agree that the 'always touch-in & touch-out' message is indeed
practical, but technically speaking it is backed up by the Oyster
conditions of use (both on NR and TfL services), which furthermore do
not preclude combining Travelcards on Oyster with other tickets.

OK, there is a bit of a muddle where a passenger combines a season
Travelcard with a paper ticket for travel within the zones, i.e. in
such cases they actively shouldn't touch in/out at a station where
they are using that paper ticket. However I doubt too many people will
combine say a zone 1&2 Travelcard season with a paper Day Travelcard
for zones 2-6, or a paper rail-only season, or a paper extension fare
- w.r.t. the latter, I suppose Gold Card holders might well do so,
given that the GC discounted fare is possibly less than the Oyster
PAYG fare for the extension, and I suppose Network Railcard holders
could too (weekends only because of the minimum fare), and ultra-
diligent pax who couldn't get hold of an OEP before travel because the
ticket office or ticket machines didn't offer them (but in these cases
the ticket office clerk seems to just tell pax that it's not a problem
and to go-ahead and travel anyway).

Most pax with Travelcards loaded on Oyster who are extending journeys
outside the zonal validity of their Travelcard, but nonetheless to
destinations within the zones, will just use Oyster PAYG to
automagically pay the extension fare (with or without an OEP).


And let's face it: until someone comes up with a definition of
"journey", none of the TfL stuff has any meaning at all.

Any RPI that sought to PF someone with a Travelcard on Oyster for not
touching-in when they're within their zonal validity would be a moron.
They would technically be within their rights to ask the pax to touch-
in next time though, I suppose.