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Old February 16th 10, 09:34 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 14 Feb, 12:51, MIG wrote:
On 14 Feb, 11:39, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:35:41 -0000, "Mitch" x wrote:
I commute every weekday to London and get about one ticket check a month,
yes far less than Silverlink. Given you can walk thru a coupled 350 (unlike
321's) its dissapointing.


Or realistic?


When I was commuting on LM, you'd see the same faces each day, all of
whom would hold a season ticket. *I expect fare dodging rates on early
morning trains to London to be very low. *Probably higher off-peak.


Neil


I do quite a lot of LM journeys, mostly either off-peak or counter-
peak, and I'd say that on-train checks are at least 90% for the
journeys I do. *Given that those are the most likely times for
evasion, they've probably got it covered.


Funny it should happen now, but there was actually a group of RP staff
on an LM train I was on, although my experience is of guards doing
checks.

I butted into a conversation because I mistakenly thought there was a
case of OEPs being enforced, and my curiosity got the better of me.

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. (He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

I was doing something similar on a paper season, which was accepted
instantly.

The RP said that it had always been a rule that you had to touch in on
NR and said something about Oyster being a "different product". He
said that if you didn't touch in, there was no way of proving where
you started your journey. I said that with my paper travelcard I had
no way of proving anything either. He sort of agreed and shrugged.

I said, but what if you had a season on Oyster and were coming into
the zones from elsewhere? He said that the train has to stop there
and you have to touch in.

I directed him to sections 9 and 19 of the NRCoC (19 about combination
of tickets, where one of them is a season and 9 about electronic
tickets having exactly the same validity as paper tickets).

In this case, I am so sure that he was wrong, and possibly confused by
the whole OEP issue, that I am not going to bang on about Oyster
having rules just for the sake of being able to get you for breaking
the rules. Oyster cannot change the NRCoC.

So this must be a case of LM either making up its own rules or having
staff training issues. No one was actually PFed in this case, but if
that's the rule that LM staff are applying, then I guess they could be.

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Old February 16th 10, 09:40 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)


If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Neil
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Old February 16th 10, 10:13 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)


If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Neil


I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.
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Old February 16th 10, 10:49 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:
On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:


It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)


If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.


Neil


I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.


And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is
this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that
wasn't the issue in this case. He was concerned about the lack of
touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about
proving the start of the journey, not the end of it.
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Old February 16th 10, 11:26 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:34:31 -0800 (PST) someone who may be MIG
wrote this:-

I directed him to sections 9 and 19 of the NRCoC (19 about combination
of tickets, where one of them is a season and 9 about electronic
tickets having exactly the same validity as paper tickets).


The most generous interpretation to put on the situation is that
this has been filed in the "too difficult" tray.

Alternatively, by saying that one must always use the pad thing
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/6369.aspx then they are
disadvantaging users of electronic tickets compared to paper ones. I
doubt if they want this to become well known.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54


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Old February 16th 10, 12:04 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)


If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.


Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

Watford Jn is of course outside the zones because LM want to retain
control for pricing the fares from there.
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Old February 16th 10, 12:20 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil *Williams wrote:


On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:


It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)


If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.


I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.


And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is
this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that
wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of
touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about
proving the start of the journey, not the end of it.


Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

3.8 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket
(or tickets) loaded on to it and
wish to start your journey from, or travel to, a destination outside
the availability of your
Travelcard season ticket, or on a route where your season ticket is
not valid, you must
purchase a ticket for your journey. However, if your journey begins or
ends at a station within
the London National Rail Pay As You Go area, you can follow the
instructions set out in 3.18
and 3.19 provided you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your
Oyster card to pay for the
additional journey(s). Failure to either purchase a ticket or follow
the instructions laid out in
3.18 and 3.19 may mean you have to pay a Penalty Fare and/or render
you liable to
prosecution.
---/quote---


Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.

Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).

I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed
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Old February 16th 10, 12:29 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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On Feb 16, 1:20*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:

On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:
[snip]
I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.


And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is
this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that
wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of
touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about
proving the start of the journey, not the end of it.


Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

[snip quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8]

Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.

Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).

I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed


I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously
enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station
and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a
passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they
do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too,
but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the
passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey
from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of
it (Watford Jn).
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Old February 16th 10, 12:50 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 16 Feb, 13:20, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:





On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:


On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil *Williams wrote:


On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:


It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)


If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.


I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.


And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is
this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that
wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of
touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about
proving the start of the journey, not the end of it.


Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

3.8 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket
(or tickets) loaded on to it and
wish to start your journey from, or travel to, a destination outside
the availability of your
Travelcard season ticket, or on a route where your season ticket is
not valid, you must
purchase a ticket for your journey. However, if your journey begins or
ends at a station within
the London National Rail Pay As You Go area, you can follow the
instructions set out in 3.18
and 3.19 provided you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your
Oyster card to pay for the
additional journey(s). Failure to either purchase a ticket or follow
the instructions laid out in
3.18 and 3.19 may mean you have to pay a Penalty Fare and/or render
you liable to
prosecution.
---/quote---

Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.

Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).

I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed


If having to touch in with Oyster travelcards really was strictly
enforced, then there are two issues.

Firstly, it would be a rule invented purely for the purpose of
penalising people for breaking a rule, when no fares are being
evaded. I look forward to seeing such things tested in court.

Secondly, it would change the NRCoC, and I don't see how TfL or any
other operator can do that. Specifically, it would render a season
ticket invalid if stored on Oyster and used in combination with
another ticket from outside of its validity.

So, despite my many misgivings about Oyster, I will be more charitable
than you and stick with the assumption that the exhortations to touch
in are purely practical, to keep people in the habit of doing so, in
case of problems in the situations when they need to.

And let's face it: until someone comes up with a definition of
"journey", none of the TfL stuff has any meaning at all.
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Old February 16th 10, 12:59 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:20*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:


On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:
[snip]
I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP
issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were
said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying.


And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is
this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that
wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of
touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about
proving the start of the journey, not the end of it.


Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...


[snip quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8]


Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6
to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement.


Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a
specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes
where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on
the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one
is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR).


I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for
inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed


I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously
enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station
and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a
passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they
do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too,
but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the
passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey
from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of
it (Watford Jn).


That's what I originally assumed, hence my interest. But as I said to
Neil, this led to a conversation where LM staff insisted that you'd
have to get off and touch in if you had a season ticket stored on
Oyster and were travelling from outside. Total confusion reigns.

It may well have been an OEP situation, but he implied that it wasn't
and that the season was valid for the journey.

Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? I
think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that
were said. I wonder if the conversation would have been different on
a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there?


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