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#1
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"10-Car" South Central
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? |
#2
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"10-Car" South Central
MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? 3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4 formation? That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in the Brighton area. I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. The numbers just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455 routes. I think SN will carry on using the 456s with their own 455s... Paul S |
#3
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"10-Car" South Central
On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote: Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? 3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4 formation? That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in the Brighton area. Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. 377/3s have first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. It would seem very odd. Better to use the 313s in south London. (Gawd, what am I volunteering for?) I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. *The numbers just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455 routes. *I think SN will carry on using the 456s with their own 455s... That would certainly make sense. It's just odd how the proposals seem to be presented. |
#4
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"10-Car" South Central
MIG wrote:
On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote: MIG wrote: Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? 3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4 formation? That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in the Brighton area. Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. 377/3s have first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. It would seem very odd. Better to use the 313s in south London. (Gawd, what am I volunteering for?) I think the seating is going to have to be altered - but surely all the 377s are 100mph anyway? I think the logic is that with 377s already operating in suburban areas, the only way of lengthening them is with other 377s - even if internal alterations need to be made. The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5 book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London? Paul S |
#5
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"10-Car" South Central
On 9 Apr, 22:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote: On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote: MIG wrote: Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? 3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4 formation? That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in the Brighton area. Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. *377/3s have first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. *It would seem very odd. *Better to use the 313s in south London. *(Gawd, what am I volunteering for?) I think the seating is going to have to be altered - but surely all the 377s are 100mph anyway? I think the logic is that with 377s already operating in suburban areas, the only way of lengthening them is with other 377s - even if internal alterations need to be made. The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5 book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London? Paul S On SWT they eventually got round to declassifying and rearranging a sub fleet of 450s, but Southern hasn't done this, despite being in a similar situation of using 377s on a substantial proportion of suburban journeys with first class and at least some 2 + 2. Maybe they will with the change? |
#6
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"10-Car" South Central
On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:59:59 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote: MIG wrote: On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote: MIG wrote: Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? 3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4 formation? That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in the Brighton area. Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. 377/3s have first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. It would seem very odd. Better to use the 313s in south London. (Gawd, what am I volunteering for?) I think the seating is going to have to be altered - but surely all the 377s are 100mph anyway? I think the logic is that with 377s already operating in suburban areas, the only way of lengthening them is with other 377s - even if internal alterations need to be made. The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5 book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London? They can run with 508s or at least they can tug them. |
#7
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"10-Car" South Central
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#8
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"10-Car" South Central
On Apr 9, 10:25*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: MIG wrote: Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car length. Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s to South Western. Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended platforms? 3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4 formation? That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in the Brighton area. I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. *The numbers just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455 routes. *I think SN will carry on using the 456s with their own 455s... I think the difference between SWT and Southern is that the Southern suburban services into London Bridge via Sydenham are planned (according to the RUS) to jump straight to 12 car length, to give the necessary capacity during Thameslink work at London Bridge. The Victoria routes, via Balham, will go to 10 car, in the short term anyway. On SWT all routes are planned to goto 10 car, also in the short term. Therefore, I can see the Southern 455s being concentrated on the 12 car London Bridge - East / West Croydon (and maybe even peak trains to East Grinstead); remember the Southern only have 46 class 455 which won't give many 12 car peak trains. The 377s would run on the 10 car Victoria services with the 456s being freed up to goto SWT, to partner their much larger class 455 fleet. |
#9
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"10-Car" South Central
On Apr 9, 10:59*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5 book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London? It was myself that advised on the EMU multiple capability in the P5 books; the 313s have proved rather difficult to pin down their ability to mu or not with other classes. Wisdom from public domain data before I looked into this about 4 years back was that 313-315 were all mu capable with each other but I came across some documents suggesting it does not work in practice. 313 are camshaft controlled, 313/314 thyristor. The coupler pin outs and mu cable functions are near identical but there seems to be some reason that mating a 313 and 315 does not work. Possible they fight each other if notching up sequence within each unit are different - rather like the diesel 25/1 and 25/2 issue ? That a 313 could tug a 508 is a red herring. More or less any unit can tug another one this has zero to do with mu ability. -- Nick |
#10
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"10-Car" South Central
On Apr 9, 10:25*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. *The numbers just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455 routes. But surely not all SWT will automatically be 10car ? I think its right to say all routes will be 10car capable, but this does not imply all trains all day have to be 10car, there will still be 8car even 4car trains that won't need 456s. Of course, all this may result in 6car trains as well ... where a 10car splits into 4 + 6. -- Nick |
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