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Old April 9th 10, 09:56 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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Default "10-Car" South Central

Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.

Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.

Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?

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Old April 9th 10, 10:25 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.

Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.

Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?


3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4
formation?
That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in
the Brighton area.

I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. The numbers
just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services
either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455
routes. I think SN will carry on using the 456s with their own 455s...

Paul S


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Old April 9th 10, 10:46 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.


Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.


Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?


3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4
formation?
That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in
the Brighton area.


Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. 377/3s have
first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. It
would seem very odd. Better to use the 313s in south London. (Gawd,
what am I volunteering for?)


I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. *The numbers
just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services
either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455
routes. *I think SN will carry on using the 456s with their own 455s...


That would certainly make sense. It's just odd how the proposals seem
to be presented.
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Old April 9th 10, 10:59 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

MIG wrote:
On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.


Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.


Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?


3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4
formation?
That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for
use in the Brighton area.


Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. 377/3s have
first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. It
would seem very odd. Better to use the 313s in south London. (Gawd,
what am I volunteering for?)


I think the seating is going to have to be altered - but surely all the 377s
are 100mph anyway? I think the logic is that with 377s already operating in
suburban areas, the only way of lengthening them is with other 377s - even
if internal alterations need to be made.

The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5
book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London?

Paul S


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Old April 9th 10, 11:53 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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Default "10-Car" South Central

On 9 Apr, 22:59, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.


Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.


Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?


3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4
formation?
That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for
use in the Brighton area.


Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. *377/3s have
first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. *It
would seem very odd. *Better to use the 313s in south London. *(Gawd,
what am I volunteering for?)


I think the seating is going to have to be altered - but surely all the 377s
are 100mph anyway? I think the logic is that with 377s already operating in
suburban areas, the only way of lengthening them is with other 377s - even
if internal alterations need to be made.

The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5
book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London?

Paul S


On SWT they eventually got round to declassifying and rearranging a
sub fleet of 450s, but Southern hasn't done this, despite being in a
similar situation of using 377s on a substantial proportion of
suburban journeys with first class and at least some 2 + 2. Maybe
they will with the change?


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Old April 10th 10, 12:08 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:59:59 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

MIG wrote:
On 9 Apr, 22:25, "Paul Scott" wrote:
MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.

Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.

Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?

3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4
formation?
That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for
use in the Brighton area.


Yes, that's why I said suitable to form suburban trains. 377/3s have
first class and 2 + 2 seating, not to mention 100 mph capability. It
would seem very odd. Better to use the 313s in south London. (Gawd,
what am I volunteering for?)


I think the seating is going to have to be altered - but surely all the 377s
are 100mph anyway? I think the logic is that with 377s already operating in
suburban areas, the only way of lengthening them is with other 377s - even
if internal alterations need to be made.

The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5
book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London?

They can run with 508s or at least they can tug them.
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Old April 10th 10, 01:27 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

On Apr 9, 10:25*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Extension of platforms on South Central ("Southern" franchise) has
been mentioned in the past, and the talk is of extension to ten-car
length.


Now I am trying to reconcile this with the proposal to transfer 456s
to South Western.


Other than 455/456 combinations, what suitable units does Southern
have that could form suburban trains that could fill the extended
platforms?


3 car 377s transferred from the Brighton locals, operating in 3+3+4
formation?
That is supposedly why the ex LO 313s have been obtained by SN for use in
the Brighton area.

I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. *The numbers
just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services
either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455
routes. *I think SN will carry on using the 456s with their own 455s...


I think the difference between SWT and Southern is that the Southern
suburban services into London Bridge via Sydenham are planned
(according to the RUS) to jump straight to 12 car length, to give the
necessary capacity during Thameslink work at London Bridge. The
Victoria routes, via Balham, will go to 10 car, in the short term
anyway. On SWT all routes are planned to goto 10 car, also in the
short term.

Therefore, I can see the Southern 455s being concentrated on the 12
car London Bridge - East / West Croydon (and maybe even peak trains to
East Grinstead); remember the Southern only have 46 class 455 which
won't give many 12 car peak trains. The 377s would run on the 10 car
Victoria services with the 456s being freed up to goto SWT, to partner
their much larger class 455 fleet.
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Old April 10th 10, 08:47 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

On Apr 9, 10:59*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

The 313s won't mutiple except with each other (that's according to my P5
book), so presumably they cannot help directly in South London?


It was myself that advised on the EMU multiple capability in the P5
books; the 313s have proved rather difficult to pin down their ability
to mu or not with other classes.

Wisdom from public domain data before I looked into this about 4 years
back was that 313-315 were all mu capable with each other but I came
across some documents suggesting it does not work in practice. 313 are
camshaft controlled, 313/314 thyristor. The coupler pin outs and mu
cable functions are near identical but there seems to be some reason
that mating a 313 and 315 does not work. Possible they fight each
other if notching up sequence within each unit are different - rather
like the diesel 25/1 and 25/2 issue ?

That a 313 could tug a 508 is a red herring. More or less any unit can
tug another one this has zero to do with mu ability.

--
Nick
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Old April 10th 10, 08:52 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default "10-Car" South Central

On Apr 9, 10:25*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

I remain unconvinced of the 456's usefulness with SWT though. *The numbers
just don't fit if the aim is to run 10 car trains on their suburban services
either, 24 of them is only about half the number they'd need for their 455
routes.



But surely not all SWT will automatically be 10car ?


I think its right to say all routes will be 10car capable, but this
does not imply all trains all day have to be 10car, there will still
be 8car even 4car trains that won't need 456s.

Of course, all this may result in 6car trains as well ... where a
10car splits into 4 + 6.

--
Nick


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