May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

So, yesterday evening I went to my PMB, and there among the pile of
assorted mail was Modern Railways, May edition. It was crinkled in a
way of only the international postal services can achieve.

Once home I was delighted to find the enclosed, detailed, map of
London's railway infrastructure. But, why did Ian Allan have to
staple in to the magazine? It was awkward to remove, and like my
fingers it now has staple holes. I wish it could simply been folded
and included, better yet sent unfolded in a tube. I know I ask a lot
and it is really good to have it.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

E27002 wrote:
So, yesterday evening I went to my PMB, and there among the pile of
assorted mail was Modern Railways, May edition. It was crinkled in a
way of only the international postal services can achieve.

Once home I was delighted to find the enclosed, detailed, map of
London's railway infrastructure. But, why did Ian Allan have to
staple in to the magazine? It was awkward to remove, and like my
fingers it now has staple holes. I wish it could simply been folded
and included, better yet sent unfolded in a tube. I know I ask a lot
and it is really good to have it.

Curious to see that Neasden Jn. and Neasden South Jn. appear to have been
transposed. In previous editions of Baker, in "Miles and Chains" and in
David Maxey's "Mile By Mile" Neasden Jn. is marked as that on the Dudding
Hill line, whilst that on the Chiltern line is Neasden South Jn. This map
marks them the opposite way round.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 11, 2:40*pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:
E27002 wrote:
So, yesterday evening I went to my PMB, and there among the pile of
assorted mail was Modern Railways, May edition. *It was crinkled in a
way of only the international postal services can achieve.

Once home I was delighted to find the enclosed, detailed, map of
London's railway infrastructure. *But, why did Ian Allan have to
staple in to the magazine? *It was awkward to remove, and like my
fingers it now has staple holes. *I wish it could simply been folded
and included, better yet sent unfolded in a tube. *I know I ask a lot
and it is really good to have it.

Curious to see that Neasden Jn. and Neasden South Jn. appear to have been
transposed. In previous editions of Baker, in "Miles and Chains" and in
David Maxey's "Mile By Mile" Neasden Jn. is marked as that on the Dudding
Hill line, whilst that on the Chiltern line is Neasden South Jn. This map
marks them the opposite way round.

I don't know enough to comment on that. Although I suspect that the
earlier maps are correct.

May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 16:41, E27002 wrote:
On May 11, 2:40*pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:





E27002 wrote:
So, yesterday evening I went to my PMB, and there among the pile of
assorted mail was Modern Railways, May edition. *It was crinkled in a
way of only the international postal services can achieve.

Once home I was delighted to find the enclosed, detailed, map of
London's railway infrastructure. *But, why did Ian Allan have to
staple in to the magazine? *It was awkward to remove, and like my
fingers it now has staple holes. *I wish it could simply been folded
and included, better yet sent unfolded in a tube. *I know I ask a lot
and it is really good to have it.

Curious to see that Neasden Jn. and Neasden South Jn. appear to have been
transposed. In previous editions of Baker, in "Miles and Chains" and in
David Maxey's "Mile By Mile" Neasden Jn. is marked as that on the Dudding
Hill line, whilst that on the Chiltern line is Neasden South Jn. This map
marks them the opposite way round.

I don't know enough to comment on that. *Although I suspect that the
earlier maps are correct.

May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? *Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?


Has the Goblin been out of action since the inception of London
Overground?

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

"MIG" wrote in message

On 12 May, 16:41, E27002 wrote:
On May 11, 2:40 pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:





E27002 wrote:
So, yesterday evening I went to my PMB, and there among the pile of
assorted mail was Modern Railways, May edition. It was crinkled in
a way of only the international postal services can achieve.

Once home I was delighted to find the enclosed, detailed, map of
London's railway infrastructure. But, why did Ian Allan have to
staple in to the magazine? It was awkward to remove, and like my
fingers it now has staple holes. I wish it could simply been folded
and included, better yet sent unfolded in a tube. I know I ask a
lot and it is really good to have it.

Curious to see that Neasden Jn. and Neasden South Jn. appear to
have been transposed. In previous editions of Baker, in "Miles and
Chains" and in David Maxey's "Mile By Mile" Neasden Jn. is marked
as that on the Dudding Hill line, whilst that on the Chiltern line
is Neasden South Jn. This map marks them the opposite way round.

I don't know enough to comment on that. Although I suspect that the
earlier maps are correct.

May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?


Has the Goblin been out of action since the inception of London
Overground?

No

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?

Has the Goblin been out of action since the inception of London
Overground?


No and no.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 19:23, D7666 wrote:
May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?
Has the Goblin been out of action since the inception of London
Overground?

No and no.

--
Nick

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12/05/2010 20:20, MIG wrote:
On 12 May, 19:23, wrote:
May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?
Has the Goblin been out of action since the inception of London
Overground?

No and no.

--
Nick

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).

I assumed he meant "are these the first diesel trains utilized for
passenger service *acquired* (as opposed to inherited) by TfL and its
predecessors?" In which case the answer AFAIK is yes. LUL does own a
diesel loco or two for maintenance purposes.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 8:20*pm, MIG wrote:

No and no.

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).


:o)

Right into my neatly sprung trap.

I thought of a non-Goblin LT/LRT/LUL/LU/etc diesel public timetabled
passenger diesel operation before I answered :o)

I admit this time to be posting exceptions to prove rules in full
pedant mode .............

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12/05/2010 20:33, D7666 wrote:
On May 12, 8:20 pm, wrote:

No and no.

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).


:o)

Right into my neatly sprung trap.

I thought of a non-Goblin LT/LRT/LUL/LU/etc diesel public timetabled
passenger diesel operation before I answered :o)

I admit this time to be posting exceptions to prove rules in full
pedant mode .............

IIRC there have been diesel trains run as part of Steam On The Met.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 20:41, Basil Jet wrote:
On 12/05/2010 20:33, D7666 wrote:





On May 12, 8:20 pm, *wrote:

No and no.

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).

:o)

Right into my neatly sprung trap.

I thought of a non-Goblin LT/LRT/LUL/LU/etc diesel public timetabled
passenger diesel operation before I answered :o)

I admit this time to be posting exceptions to prove rules in full
pedant mode .............

IIRC there have been diesel trains run as part of Steam On The Met.

And there's generally a 20 at the other end of that awful coloured TC
unit from Sarah Siddons, but does that count as timetabled?

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 8:46*pm, MIG wrote:

No and no.

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).

I admit this time to be posting exceptions to prove rules in full
pedant mode .............

IIRC there have been diesel trains run as part of Steam On The Met.

And there's generally a 20 at the other end of that awful coloured TC
unit from Sarah Siddons, but does that count as timetabled?

Nope, not that.

Public timetabled diesel train.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 9:21*pm, D7666 wrote:

Public timetabled diesel train.

As i clicked send I realised thats too open to mis-interpretation.

I mean a normal scheduled train, not a heritage event or open day
working or crankex.

A bog standard normal service.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 21:23, D7666 wrote:
On May 12, 9:21*pm, D7666 wrote:

Public timetabled diesel train.

As i clicked send I realised thats too open to mis-interpretation.

I mean a normal scheduled train, not a heritage event or open day
working or crankex.

A bog standard normal service.


And since London Transport and its successors have existed?

I am struggling, but still whirring of the brian.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 21:35, MIG wrote:
On 12 May, 21:23, D7666 wrote:
On May 12, 9:21*pm, D7666 wrote:
I mean a normal scheduled train, not a heritage event or open day
working or crankex.

A bog standard normal service.

And since London Transport and its successors have existed?

On Steam on the Met 1993 (IIRC) the green 121 Bubblecar was used as
Chesham Branch Shuttle. But that doesn't count.

Otherwise, there was this:
http://tinyurl.com/3x5gcjp

Or are we talking DEL 120?

Andy

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 9:35*pm, MIG wrote:

A bog standard normal service.

And since London Transport and its successors have existed?

Yes.


I am struggling, but still whirring of the brian.

I can hear a strange whirring on the wind.

I am at the extremes of exceptions to prove rules here but what I
refer to was definitely not a heritage/crankex working, but a normal
timetabled train, but booked to be diesel operated.

Hint: technically it could be done today the vehicles of the right
types are still about :o)

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 9:41*pm, Andy Elms wrote:

A bog standard normal service.

And since London Transport and its successors have existed?

Yes.

On Steam on the Met 1993 (IIRC) the green 121 Bubblecar was used as
Chesham Branch Shuttle. But that doesn't count.

Indeed. Not that.


Otherwise, there was this:http://tinyurl.com/3x5gcjp

Or are we talking DEL 120?

Not that.

Normal timetabled passenger train.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 9:58*pm, wrote:

Was that DMU service for *that ran out along the Central out Epping
way many years ago run on behalf of LT?

Good point.

Not the one I am thinking of though.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 22:00, D7666 wrote:
On May 12, 9:58*pm, wrote:

Was that DMU service for *that ran out along the Central out Epping
way many years ago run on behalf of LT?

Good point.

Not the one I am thinking of though.

Well, the only place I can think where diesel trains currently run in
passenger service on LT lines is Harrow to Amersham. Have there been
occasions where additional services have been run by/on behalf of LT/
TfL, eg during works?

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On Wed, 12 May 2010 14:00:08 -0700 (PDT), D7666
wrote:

On May 12, 9:58*pm, wrote:

Was that DMU service for *that ran out along the Central out Epping
way many years ago run on behalf of LT?

Good point.

Not the one I am thinking of though.


Was it the Kensington Olympia - Clapham Junction shuttle?

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

In uk.railway MIG wrote:
Well, the only place I can think where diesel trains currently run in
passenger service on LT lines is Harrow to Amersham. Have there been
occasions where additional services have been run by/on behalf of LT/
TfL, eg during works?

Diesels to Aylesbury pre-cutback to Amersham (1958)?

Theo

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

Andy Elms wrote:

On Steam on the Met 1993 (IIRC) the green 121 Bubblecar was used as
Chesham Branch Shuttle. But that doesn't count.

Similarly, on 20th May 1995, after working in on a railtour (Hertfordshire -
"The Pinner Pieman") from Waterloo, a 3H DEMU was used on the branch in
place of the A stock. The other unit of the pair stabled at Watford Met all
day with an additional Chalfont to Watford Met service used to get the
branch unit back to Watford in time for the return tour run.

I remember well the thrash from a pair of 3Hs on the non-stop run from
Watford Met up to Aylesbury!

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 12, 4:10*pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:
Andy Elms wrote:

On Steam on the Met 1993 (IIRC) the green 121 Bubblecar was used as
Chesham Branch Shuttle. But that doesn't count.

Similarly, on 20th May 1995, after working in on a railtour (Hertfordshire -
"The Pinner Pieman") from Waterloo, a 3H DEMU was used on the branch in
place of the A stock. The other unit of the pair stabled at Watford Met all
day with an additional Chalfont to Watford Met service used to get the
branch unit back to Watford in time for the return tour run.

I remember well the thrash from a pair of 3Hs on the non-stop run from
Watford Met up to Aylesbury!

Sounds wonderful!

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On Wed, 12 May 2010 20:25:36 +0100, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 12/05/2010 20:20, MIG wrote:
On 12 May, 19:23, wrote:
May MR also has pictures of the new units for the "Goblin" line? Are
these the first diesel trains utilized for passenger service by TfL
and its predecessors?
Has the Goblin been out of action since the inception of London
Overground?

No and no.

--
Nick

I didn't think so, but a yes to the latter would be the only way there
could have been a yes to the former (as I probably don't need to spell
out).

I assumed he meant "are these the first diesel trains utilized for
passenger service *acquired* (as opposed to inherited) by TfL and its
predecessors?"

Have they been "acquired" by TfL or are they leased to the
contractor/franchisee ? Earlier announcements suggest they belong to
Angel Trains, ISTR this was to avoid the risk of GOBLIN being
electrified sooner rather than later and leaving them as unwanted
non-electric stock.

In which case the answer AFAIK is yes. LUL does own a
diesel loco or two for maintenance purposes.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On Wed, 12 May 2010 14:53:20 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

On 12 May, 22:00, D7666 wrote:
On May 12, 9:58*pm, wrote:

Was that DMU service for *that ran out along the Central out Epping
way many years ago run on behalf of LT?

Good point.

Not the one I am thinking of though.

Well, the only place I can think where diesel trains currently run in
passenger service on LT lines is Harrow to Amersham. Have there been
occasions where additional services have been run by/on behalf of LT/
TfL, eg during works?

ISTR a faint memory of BR DMUs operating/substituting normal services
on the Chesham branch some years ago.

Did any weasels ever find their way onto Met. services from Ricky to
Aylesbury ?

IMU the Widened Lines belonged to LT before they were separated so
they probably had scheduled diesel-hauled (non-LT) trains running over
LT.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On 12 May, 20:25, Basil Jet wrote:

I assumed he meant "are these the first diesel trains utilized for
passenger service *acquired* (as opposed to inherited) by TfL and its
predecessors?" In which case the answer AFAIK is yes. LUL does own a
diesel loco or two for maintenance purposes.

The answer is no, if you include experimental use on booked services.
London Transport tried out an AEC diesel railcar for some months on
the Chesham branch and also Epping-Ongar c.1954. This was before
either line had been electrified, and presumably LT was wondering
whether it was worth doing. As we now know, Chesham was eventually
electrified 1960/1961. Epping-Ongar was also given third and fourth
rails c.1957 but of course has since been closed.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

It was not myself who asked the question upthread, although it was me
who propagated examples of LT and descendant running diesel trains; I
don't know if the original questioner would include ''crank'' workings
- but I would not.

I was aware of the Chesham bubble car and the Chesham 3H trains - but
was discounting them - service train or not, the units were only there
for crank purposes or heritage events, which to my way of seeing
things are artificial.

I am not aware of BR DMMU working vice Met.trains but there might
have; I suppose if they have so worked it is a valid answer. Likewise,
I think all the Met. widened lines etc diesel workings were always BR
trains but there might have been some dubious workings that were LT
hiring BR - but I can't think why on earth that would have happened.

I had not thought of the Sundays Liverpool Street - Ongar DMU but they
were LT etc : seem to me to be a good answer as I believe they were LT
trains operated by BR, rather than BR trains.

It is the Chesham branch I was thinking of - two cases - one has now
been posted - the ACV railcars in 1952
http://www.railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/ACVops.htm
I had not heard the ACVs went to Ongar - and that page does not report
this; that is not to say they did not, I'm just not aware of this.

But the one I thought of first - the one that set me answering in this
thread - was the use c.1983 of Hastings DEMU on the Chesham branch.
Not a railtour. Not a special event working. Not a crankex. Booked to
do it for genuine operating reasons.

When LT or whatever abbreviation they were that week hired BR test car
999550 it had 2 Hastings DEMU motor coaches as motive power. It toured
all parts of the LU network, where it fitted. When they did the
Chesham branch - which was in the day time - it ran as a normal
timetabled public service train, just from Chalfont to Chesham and
back. One trip only. Happened one time only, was never repeated. DMBSO
+999550+DMBSO with passengers in the in the normal places.

I was aware of it in advance happening, I had planned on doing it, and
was en route from Coventry where I lived at the time, to London, but
the 81 hauling the train failed north of Bletchley. Got pushed by the
following rain into Bletchley platforms, then dragged into Euston with
a single 25. Not only did I get a cab ride in the dead 81 out of this
(I was pretty well known to several Wolverhampton depot drivers at
that time) but the train was out of course working and we went via the
Up Empty Carriage Line - the one and only time I ever did that piece
of track. So I had a ''rat'' through the ''rat hole'' as it was
called.

The Up ECS line is the one that used to diverge left from the Up side
in the primrose Hill area swing round in tunnel under the entire
running line layout and emerge on the Down side. Closed a good while
back, I assume abandoned and lifted when they re-worked Euston under
PUG1 ?

Swings and roundabouts. I lost out on having the rare event of a DEMU
in service to Chesham, but got a spectacularly rare piece of track
with my fav. class at the time, a 25.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

999550 it had 2 Hastings DEMU motor coaches as motive power.


Oh yes, 999550 and HasDEMU motor coaches still about today,
technically the train could be reformed.

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On Thu, 13 May 2010 12:13:37 -0700 (PDT), D7666
wrote:

It was not myself who asked the question upthread, although it was me
who propagated examples of LT and descendant running diesel trains; I
don't know if the original questioner would include ''crank'' workings
- but I would not.

I was aware of the Chesham bubble car and the Chesham 3H trains - but
was discounting them - service train or not, the units were only there
for crank purposes or heritage events, which to my way of seeing
things are artificial.

I am not aware of BR DMMU working vice Met.trains but there might
have; I suppose if they have so worked it is a valid answer. Likewise,
I think all the Met. widened lines etc diesel workings were always BR
trains but there might have been some dubious workings that were LT
hiring BR - but I can't think why on earth that would have happened.

I had not thought of the Sundays Liverpool Street - Ongar DMU but they
were LT etc : seem to me to be a good answer as I believe they were LT
trains operated by BR, rather than BR trains.

It is the Chesham branch I was thinking of - two cases - one has now
been posted - the ACV railcars in 1952
http://www.railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/ACVops.htm
I had not heard the ACVs went to Ongar - and that page does not report
this; that is not to say they did not, I'm just not aware of this.

But the one I thought of first - the one that set me answering in this
thread - was the use c.1983 of Hastings DEMU on the Chesham branch.
Not a railtour. Not a special event working. Not a crankex. Booked to
do it for genuine operating reasons.

When LT or whatever abbreviation they were that week hired BR test car
999550 it had 2 Hastings DEMU motor coaches as motive power. It toured
all parts of the LU network, where it fitted. When they did the
Chesham branch - which was in the day time - it ran as a normal
timetabled public service train, just from Chalfont to Chesham and
back. One trip only. Happened one time only, was never repeated. DMBSO
+999550+DMBSO with passengers in the in the normal places.

I was aware of it in advance happening, I had planned on doing it, and
was en route from Coventry where I lived at the time, to London, but
the 81 hauling the train failed north of Bletchley. Got pushed by the
following rain into Bletchley platforms, then dragged into Euston with
a single 25. Not only did I get a cab ride in the dead 81 out of this
(I was pretty well known to several Wolverhampton depot drivers at
that time) but the train was out of course working and we went via the
Up Empty Carriage Line - the one and only time I ever did that piece
of track. So I had a ''rat'' through the ''rat hole'' as it was
called.

The Up ECS line is the one that used to diverge left from the Up side
in the primrose Hill area swing round in tunnel under the entire
running line layout and emerge on the Down side. Closed a good while
back, I assume abandoned and lifted when they re-worked Euston under
PUG1 ?

More a case of flooded then subsequently abandoned IIRC.

Swings and roundabouts. I lost out on having the rare event of a DEMU
in service to Chesham, but got a spectacularly rare piece of track
with my fav. class at the time, a 25.

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

On May 14, 2:41*am, Charles Ellson wrote:

back, I assume abandoned and lifted when they re-worked Euston under
PUG1 ?

More a case of flooded then subsequently abandoned IIRC.


ahh thats what happened was it.

I'd guess it might not have survived PUG anyway had it been still
operational.

Or someone would have decided it would be the new Up Fast Arrivals
road into Euston :o)

--
Nick

May Modern Raiways, Map of London's Railways
 

Jack Taylor:
Similarly, on 20th May 1995, after working in on a railtour (Hertfordshire -
"The Pinner Pieman") from Waterloo, a 3H DEMU was used on the [Chesham]
branch in place of the A stock. ...

Hey, I was on that trip! And I rode the DEMU on the branch, too.
It's the only time I've been on a railfan special in the UK.
--
Mark Brader "Clearly, neither Mark Brader nor
Toronto Steve Summit read the whole book..."
-- Greg Black