The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Sorry just daydreaming again!

On Jun 1, 3:34*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:
The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Sorry just daydreaming again!

I think it is very much a daydream. The difference in height is
evident at Hackney Downs / Hackney Central. There is no space at
Graham Road to add a north / north eastwards spur as it would reach
line height north of Hackney Downs and past the junction to Clapton
and Chingford. I would much rather that the long promised and not
delivered passenger interchange link between Hackneys Central and
Downs was put in - that would give the link between the two sets of
lines and I'm sure it would be very well used.

I won't repeat my ideas for the Chingford Line - people will start
yawning.

--
Paul C
via Google because my ISP forgot to provide a news server when it
migrated my account

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Jun 1, 3:34*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:

The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Sorry just daydreaming again!

I think it is very much a daydream. The difference in height is evident
at Hackney Downs / Hackney Central. There is no space at Graham Road to
add a north / north eastwards spur as it would reach line height north
of Hackney Downs and past the junction to Clapton and Chingford.

Oh don't be such a stick in the mud!

The line dives fairly steeply as it comes into Dalston Junction. All it
needs to do is to keep diving. It can follow the line of Kingsland Road
until it's deep enough to fly under the buildings of Dalston (via new deep
platforms right in front of Dalston Kingsland station). It then roughly
follows Shacklewell Lane to sort of Downs Road-ish, where it surfaces into
the alignment of the Southbury loop (taking land from the commercial
buildings along the west side of the line as needed), just in time to
deliver trains to Rectory Road. That branch of the West Anglia thus
becomes a branch of the ELL (exclusively, or still getting some WA
trains). Passive provision would be made for a station on the tunnelled
section in Shacklewell.

Alternatively, fill in the dive into Dalston, and raise the line to
elevated height above Kingsland Road. Reshape Kingsland Road into a dual
carriageway; you might need to widen it a bit, but that's a road project,
so land take will be easy to push through. Build a New York style elevated
railway on pillars set in the central reservation north from Dalston. At
Stoke Newington, curve left to meet the Southbury loop, and slowly descend
to join it. Elevated stations at Kingsland Road, Stoke Newington, and one
or two points in between. Where possible, in particular in Stoke
Newington, associate them with new high-rise mixed-use developments on the
site of whatever grotty buildings are there already, with level access
from the station to the second floors of the buildings. Use the profit
from these to subsidise construction. It virtually builds itself.

I won't repeat my ideas for the Chingford Line - people will start
yawning.

You should do a 2010 remix. How about a line carrying on straight at Wood
Street and going to South Woodford? Put in a triangular junction, so
people can take the Corfield Light Railway to the Central line too.

tom

--
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way. -- Bertrand Russell

On 1 June, 21:45, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Jun 1, 3:34*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:

The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Sorry just daydreaming again!

I think it is very much a daydream. The difference in height is evident
at Hackney Downs / Hackney Central. There is no space at Graham Road to
add a north / north eastwards spur as it would reach line height north
of Hackney Downs and past the junction to Clapton and Chingford.

Oh don't be such a stick in the mud!

The line dives fairly steeply as it comes into Dalston Junction. All it
needs to do is to keep diving. It can follow the line of Kingsland Road
until it's deep enough to fly under the buildings of Dalston (via new deep
platforms right in front of Dalston Kingsland station). It then roughly
follows Shacklewell Lane to sort of Downs Road-ish, where it surfaces into
the alignment of the Southbury loop (taking land from the commercial
buildings along the west side of the line as needed), just in time to
deliver trains to Rectory Road. That branch of the West Anglia thus
becomes a branch of the ELL (exclusively, or still getting some WA
trains). Passive provision would be made for a station on the tunnelled
section in Shacklewell.

Alternatively, fill in the dive into Dalston, and raise the line to
elevated height above Kingsland Road. Reshape Kingsland Road into a dual
carriageway; you might need to widen it a bit, but that's a road project,
so land take will be easy to push through. Build a New York style elevated
railway on pillars set in the central reservation north from Dalston. At
Stoke Newington, curve left to meet the Southbury loop, and slowly descend
to join it. Elevated stations at Kingsland Road, Stoke Newington, and one
or two points in between. Where possible, in particular in Stoke
Newington, associate them with new high-rise mixed-use developments on the
site of whatever grotty buildings are there already, with level access
from the station to the second floors of the buildings. Use the profit
from these to subsidise construction. It virtually builds itself.

I won't repeat my ideas for the Chingford Line - people will start
yawning.

You should do a 2010 remix. How about a line carrying on straight at Wood
Street and going to South Woodford? Put in a triangular junction, so
people can take the Corfield Light Railway to the Central line too.

tom

--
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way. -- Bertrand Russell

Interesting ideas Tom! But even without building new stuff, it would
still be possible to go Richmond to West Croydon and Watford to West
Croydon, right? Highbury and Islington seems a bit "unnatural" a
terminus, give that the tracks continue west of there.

Another madcap scheme would be to take over the Canonbury Curve and
head up to Edgware via the old GNR route...
Oh and GOBLIN extended to Acton via Dudden Hill via some kind of
sweeping flying movements over the MML...

On 2 June, 19:54, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:
On 1 June, 21:45, Tom Anderson wrote:



On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Jun 1, 3:34*pm, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:

The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Sorry just daydreaming again!

I think it is very much a daydream. The difference in height is evident
at Hackney Downs / Hackney Central. There is no space at Graham Road to
add a north / north eastwards spur as it would reach line height north
of Hackney Downs and past the junction to Clapton and Chingford.

Oh don't be such a stick in the mud!

The line dives fairly steeply as it comes into Dalston Junction. All it
needs to do is to keep diving. It can follow the line of Kingsland Road
until it's deep enough to fly under the buildings of Dalston (via new deep
platforms right in front of Dalston Kingsland station). It then roughly
follows Shacklewell Lane to sort of Downs Road-ish, where it surfaces into
the alignment of the Southbury loop (taking land from the commercial
buildings along the west side of the line as needed), just in time to
deliver trains to Rectory Road. That branch of the West Anglia thus
becomes a branch of the ELL (exclusively, or still getting some WA
trains). Passive provision would be made for a station on the tunnelled
section in Shacklewell.

Alternatively, fill in the dive into Dalston, and raise the line to
elevated height above Kingsland Road. Reshape Kingsland Road into a dual
carriageway; you might need to widen it a bit, but that's a road project,
so land take will be easy to push through. Build a New York style elevated
railway on pillars set in the central reservation north from Dalston. At
Stoke Newington, curve left to meet the Southbury loop, and slowly descend
to join it. Elevated stations at Kingsland Road, Stoke Newington, and one
or two points in between. Where possible, in particular in Stoke
Newington, associate them with new high-rise mixed-use developments on the
site of whatever grotty buildings are there already, with level access
from the station to the second floors of the buildings. Use the profit
from these to subsidise construction. It virtually builds itself.

I won't repeat my ideas for the Chingford Line - people will start
yawning.

You should do a 2010 remix. How about a line carrying on straight at Wood
Street and going to South Woodford? Put in a triangular junction, so
people can take the Corfield Light Railway to the Central line too.

tom

--
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way. -- Bertrand Russell

Interesting ideas Tom! But even without building new stuff, it would
still be possible to go Richmond to West Croydon and Watford to West
Croydon, right? Highbury and Islington seems a bit "unnatural" a
terminus, give that the tracks continue west of there.

Another madcap scheme would be to take over the Canonbury Curve and
head up to Edgware via the old GNR route...
Oh and GOBLIN extended to Acton via Dudden Hill via some kind of
sweeping flying movements over the MML...

....or under...

Send the existing tunnel linking the Goblin to the MML deeper, and
extend it to West Hampstead to run up the freight lines. Maybe have
an interchange with Belsize Park.

The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Having made the journey from Norwood Junction to Edmonton Green only last
Friday, I have to say that is a nice dream. Good to have a trip on the ELL
but it gained me diddly squat time wise, just the rather dubious pleasure of
45 minutes on the 149 northbound. Has to be said that emerging at Dalston
Junction isn't really something that gladdens the heart, but then again the
immediate surroundings of West Croydon and Crystal Palace (if you don't turn
into the park) aren't much to write home about either.

I'd like something much more modest. Platforms on the Suburban Lines around
about where Bishopsgate Low Level was, linked in with Shoreditch High Street
station. Up trains as often slow to a crawl or a complete halt there anyway
so they can do something more useful with their time, and northbound it
wouldn't waste much time as the trains aren't up to speed anyway.

On Jun 7, 2:19*pm, "Graham J" wrote:
The East London Line is basically a north-south route, except for the
upcoming section to Highbury and Islington. But what if a connection
were made to the Lea Valley Lines, which according to my calculations
(which are sometimes wrong!) are only three-quarters of a mile away
from Dalston Junction)? I'm not sure whether this would be best on the
surface, elevated or underground, but then you could have West Croydon
and Crystal Palace trains to Enfield Town and Chingford...

Having made the journey from Norwood Junction to Edmonton Green only last
Friday, I have to say that is a nice dream. Good to have a trip on the ELL
but it gained me diddly squat time wise, just the rather dubious pleasure of
45 minutes on the 149 northbound. Has to be said that emerging at Dalston
Junction isn't really something that gladdens the heart, but then again the
immediate surroundings of West Croydon and Crystal Palace (if you don't turn
into the park) aren't much to write home about either.

I'd like something much more modest. Platforms on the Suburban Lines around
about where Bishopsgate Low Level was, linked in with Shoreditch High Street
station. *Up trains as often slow to a crawl or a complete halt there anyway
so they can do something more useful with their time, and northbound it
wouldn't waste much time as the trains aren't up to speed anyway.

As an alternative to that, once the GE13 bridge and ramp were removed,
that there was the opportunity for squeezing another pair of tracks
down that way had a bit more of the corridor been levelled down to
track level (and had the Broadgate Tower's foundations had it factored
in). The link to the Met could have been either reinstated (and
doubled) and platforms 1&2 given over, or the curve sunk below
concourse level for a SSL service running north alongside the northern
side of the existing lines until the GE13 bridge (under the
Bishopsgate site where demolition wasn't possible), where the ramp
could have been removed and the main formation slewed southwards,
enabling the new route to run along the existing formation, then
there's ample room all the way down to Bethnal Green Junction o run up
the WA lines up to Enfield/Cheshunt. On that line a station at
Shoreditch High St. would have made a lot of sense.

An alternative is to grab an eastbound 30 or 56 at Dalston Junction and
toddle 5-6 mins down the road to Hackney Downs. They stop right outside
and it's not a bad connection given the NXEA services are x15 most of
the time. The buses are typically very frequent most of the time too.

Thanks, I'll bear that in mind if I try the journey again. It isn't an area
I know and I hadn't researched the route beforehand last time out. Having a
three year old with me limited the amount of improvisation that was
appropriate. My idea was to avoid as many changes as possible but the 149
journey was just too long and too boring for my son (and me come to that).

It is just as easy for me to get to East Croydon as Norwood Junction so it
might be that the most sensible route is to go to London Bridge, then bus to
Liverpool Street, then back on the train. FCC to Farringdon and then the
tube is an option but not quite so toddler friendly.

G.