On Jun 11, 9:37*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00
they don't say.

Sorry Michael but it ain't that simple. In London, TfL allow *all*
pass holders - both Freedom Pass holders and ENCTS senior pass holders
- to use their passes at any time (i.e. inc. before 09:30 and after
23:00) on London bus services. Other local authorities meanwhile may
allow local pass holders 'extra' travel time (e.g. before 09:30) but
enforce the 09:30 - 23:00 weekday time window on non-local ENCTS pass
holders.

Also, with regards to your Kingston to Dorking example - this is route
465, and is operated (by Metrobus) for TfL, and is hence a full part
of the London Bus network. As such, the TfL rules apply to this route
- so all ENCTS pass holders (both Londoners and those from yonder the
smoke) can use this bus service for free at ant time of the day.

There are some routes on the fringes of London which are not part of
the London Buses network, but where there are arrangements for the
acceptance of TfL tickets for part of the route - the 84 (Metroline)
accepts TfL tickets between New Barnet and Potters Bar, but it also
then continues on beyond Potters Bar to St. Albans. Unfortunately a
recent redesign of the fares section of the TfL website has resulted
in detailed info for such routes vanishing.

However, for the bare bones see the "Concessionary bus passes from
outside London" section on this page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14305.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-4

Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 9:37 pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.
The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

There are a few other wrinkles outside London.

OAPs on Whippet buses are required to place the pass on the smart card
reader until the destination number can be keyed. A zero value ticket
is then issued. The London freedom card, not being ITSO compliant, is
not acceptable to the reader. The correct procedure is then to use the
manual backup keying sequence

Stagecoach Cambridge on one route now let the driver issue zero value
fares after 9.25. This variant arose as it was an hourly frequency
route with the bus timed at 9.26. but on school days often being late. A
dispute then arose as to the actual time and delaying tactics being
used on speed of boarding.

Alan Quick wrote on 12 June 2010 16:58:36 ...
Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 9:37 pm, "Michael R N wrote:

wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the
0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.
The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

There are a few other wrinkles outside London.

OAPs on Whippet buses are required to place the pass on the smart card
reader until the destination number can be keyed. A zero value ticket
is then issued. The London freedom card, not being ITSO compliant, is
not acceptable to the reader.

London's Freedom Passes were all reissued recently. The new ones, valid
from 1 April 2010, incorporate both ITSO and Oyster technology, and
should be compatible with both systems.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Mizter T wrote in

On Jun 11, 9:37*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use
their
passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London
AREA.

So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in
Kingston
to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on
for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would
have
to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before
09:00
they don't say.

.. Sorry Michael but it ain't that simple. In London, TfL allow *all*
pass holders - both Freedom Pass holders and ENCTS senior pass holders
- to use their passes at any time (i.e. inc. before 09:30 and after
23:00) on London bus services. Other local authorities meanwhile may
allow local pass holders 'extra' travel time (e.g. before 09:30) but
enforce the 09:30 - 23:00 weekday time window on non-local ENCTS pass
holders.

Have you examples of "Other local authorities" that actually do this
discrimination on buses ? Or a legal opinion on its allowability ?

.. Also, with regards to your Kingston to Dorking example - this is
route
465, and is operated (by Metrobus) for TfL, and is hence a full part
of the London Bus network. As such, the TfL rules apply to this route
- so all ENCTS pass holders (both Londoners and those from yonder the
smoke) can use this bus service for free at ant time of the day.

=quote
http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/fre...here/buses.htm
Your Freedom Pass is valid on most local buses (in the Greater London
area) at any time of day or night. ==

In the Greater London area the London Borough where the F/ENCTS holder
got on would be charged.

Outside that area, eg if they got on in Leatherhead before 09:00, then
acceptance would cause Mole Valley council to be charged and they have
not agreed to pay.


There are some routes on the fringes of London which are not part of
the London Buses network, but where there are arrangements for the
acceptance of TfL tickets for part of the route - the 84 (Metroline)
[...]

I have the pre-2009 download but for Senior Pass purposes it hardly
matters except for the argument above wrt Twirlies since these are all
local bus services.

--
Mike D

Ian wrote in article
. ..

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01cb0994$b7750360$LocalHost@default...
Ian wrote

Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before
the

0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to
their
OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas.

The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the
principle.

beg to differ.... what you are (correctly) demonstarting is that
different LAs have different ules. And London has a completely
different set of rules.

Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that
LA's AREA.

My point, which I have obviously not made clear, is that the LA rules
are area rules and apply to bus boardings /in their own area/ rather
than Own Holders in own area.

--
Mike D

Matt J Forbes wrote in news:33fcfcd6-3ce5-435a-b581-
:

In Portsmouth, the two major operators (First Hants & Dorset and
Stagecoach) issue zero fare tickets to those travelling on OAP /
Disabled passes, but seemingly without taking into account the origin
or destination of the journey in question. I'm no expert on these
things, but I can only imagine that it must cause nightmares for the
company accountants when billing the council for 'lost' revenue.

Broadly speaking, there are two ways in use for dealing with the accounting
issues. One is to count every use (eg by pressing a button or issuing a
zero-priced ticket) and the other is to sample the traffic from time to
time and extrapolate.

Different operators and authorities at various times have preferred one
over the other. Again in broad terms, counting each use is more expensive
but more accurate, but the degree to which it is more expensive depends on
the type of on-board and in-depot equipment the operator already has.

Peter

--
| Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK |

Broadly speaking, there are two ways in use for dealing with the accounting
issues. *One is to count every use (eg by pressing a button or issuing a
zero-priced ticket) and the other is to sample the traffic from time to
time and extrapolate.

This is my point. It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction
of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare
type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus.
Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for
the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as
zero-fare. This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the
journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made -
which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops
down the road.

M

On 15 June, 11:01, Matt J Forbes wrote:
Broadly speaking, there are two ways in use for dealing with the accounting
issues. *One is to count every use (eg by pressing a button or issuing a
zero-priced ticket) and the other is to sample the traffic from time to
time and extrapolate.

This is my point. *It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction
of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare
type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus.
Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for
the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as
zero-fare. *This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the
journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made -
which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops
down the road.

M

This is apparently what SPT or the entire Scottish scheme seems to be
attempting.

Matt J Forbes wrote in
:

It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction
of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare
type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus.
Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for
the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as
zero-fare. This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the
journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made -
which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops
down the road.

Pressing the buttons is the relatively easy bit, though at the moment I
doubt many ticket machines have the capability to accept the identity of
the issuing authority, even supposing the driver can correctly interpret
whether its a district operating within a county scheme or a unitary
authority doing it for itself.

You then need to dump the data at the depot (coping with corrupt data,
late data, fraud etc etc), using different software for each of the
various types of ticket machines you have, more software to merge the
datasets, and probably an arrangement with a clearing house to accept
all your data and partition it out to the various issuing authorities.

Then you have to invoice them, and track and chase the invoices, deal
with questions and audits and so on. It's all doable, but not cheap to
buy or maintain.

ITSO is also not cheap, but the theory is that if all the bus companies
and LAs subscribe to it, there will at least be some economies of scale,
uniformity of data and a measure of fraud control. Scotland is making
some progress with that.

As with many schemes which increase the accuracy of a payment from A to
B, one side is likely to gain from the change and one will lose. Unless
both sides reckon they will be the winner it may be difficult to get
agreement to the change.

Peter

--
| Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK |

"Peter Campbell Smith" wrote in message
...
Matt J Forbes wrote in
:

It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction
of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare
type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus.
Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for
the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as
zero-fare. This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the
journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made -
which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops
down the road.

Pressing the buttons is the relatively easy bit, though at the moment I
doubt many ticket machines have the capability to accept the identity of
the issuing authority, even supposing the driver can correctly interpret
whether its a district operating within a county scheme or a unitary
authority doing it for itself.

You then need to dump the data at the depot (coping with corrupt data,
late data, fraud etc etc), using different software for each of the
various types of ticket machines you have, more software to merge the
datasets, and probably an arrangement with a clearing house to accept
all your data and partition it out to the various issuing authorities.

Then you have to invoice them, and track and chase the invoices, deal
with questions and audits and so on. It's all doable, but not cheap to
buy or maintain.

ITSO is also not cheap, but the theory is that if all the bus companies
and LAs subscribe to it, there will at least be some economies of scale,
uniformity of data and a measure of fraud control. Scotland is making
some progress with that.

As with many schemes which increase the accuracy of a payment from A to
B, one side is likely to gain from the change and one will lose. Unless
both sides reckon they will be the winner it may be difficult to get
agreement to the change.

Peter

--
| Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK |

Whoa.....

If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that
pass, who pays? Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made
no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt
very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my
wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it
was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out of
my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy
with that.