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Old October 19th 10, 04:23 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
MIG MIG is offline
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Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

If this is true, how on Earth can I have missed it? Several SET staff
absolutely convinced that NR journeys do not contribute to the daily
cap.

Checking the fares on TfL, it's difficult to prove definitively that
they should.

Although this page http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx offers a
link which appears to be linking to the cap for "Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail", the page it links to only mentions LO,
not NR.

If you look at this page http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx
although there's mention of capping on NR "through fares", there's no
mention of capping if you do an NR-only journey.

I am staggered. I really thought that PAYG capping was finally the
equivalent of a day travelcard, but if this is correct, then I have
been a fool.

Does it really explain what happened to me today? I can't really see
how. At lunchtime I had £5.80 credit.

Then I did one LU + NR journey @ £1.80
balance £4.00

Later, I went to Lewisham to get a train to Victoria, missed it and
went via Cannon Street and LU @ £2.80,
balance £1.20

After less than 40 minutes, I now realise, despite doing nothing
anoraky, but just picking up some stuff, I touched in at Victoria NR,
which bleeped open the gate showing a balance of £1.20.

I expected to be charged £1 up to the off-peak zone 1 - 2 cap, but
instead couldn't get out at Lewisham. The staff there checked my card
and claimed that I hadn't touched in at Victoria and that my balance
was -£0.30. They issued a penalty fare.

A printout from the ticket office shows that I did touch in at
Victoria and was charged £1.50, leaving the -£0.30.

When I worked out the 40-minute issue, I thougth "aha, I've been
caught out by the OSI journey timeout" but, given the adamancy of the
staff, I discovered the rather unsatisfactory information about which
journeys the cap applies to.

In the meantime, I've been hit with liability for the balance of a
penalty fare, having paid £2.40 towards it, under threat of
administration costs and legal action if I don't pay up pronto.

So now I've got to waste my life appealing the penalty, and wondering
if I'll ever get back the £2.40, let alone the 50p overcharge beyond
the cap. Given that I'm not going to pay the £17.60 balance in any
circumstances, I may end up facing lengthy legal action and threats,
all because I was stupid enough to believe the hype about capping and
use Oyster.

Really, why the hell should my life be ****ed up like this? I thought
I was one of the relatively knowledgeable people. Gawd help anyone
from out of town.

Can there possibly be any advice now other than "NEVER USE OYSTER; IT
WILL **** UP YOUR LIFE"?

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Old October 19th 10, 04:27 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
MIG MIG is offline
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Posts: 3,154
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

On 19 Oct, 17:23, MIG wrote:
If this is true, how on Earth can I have missed it? *Several SET staff
absolutely convinced that NR journeys do not contribute to the daily
cap.

Checking the fares on TfL, it's difficult to prove definitively that
they should.

Although this pagehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspxoffers a
link which appears to be linking to the cap for "Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail", the page it links to only mentions LO,
not NR.

If you look at this pagehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx
although there's mention of capping on NR "through fares", there's no
mention of capping if you do an NR-only journey.

I am staggered. *I really thought that PAYG capping was finally the
equivalent of a day travelcard, but if this is correct, then I have
been a fool.

Does it really explain what happened to me today? *I can't really see
how. *At lunchtime I had £5.80 credit.

Then I did one LU + NR journey @ £1.80
balance £4.00


Oops, I meant LU + DLR.


Later, I went to Lewisham to get a train to Victoria, missed it and
went via Cannon Street and LU @ £2.80,
balance £1.20

After less than 40 minutes, I now realise, despite doing nothing
anoraky, but just picking up some stuff, I touched in at Victoria NR,
which bleeped open the gate showing a balance of £1.20.

I expected to be charged £1 up to the off-peak zone 1 - 2 cap, but
instead couldn't get out at Lewisham. *The staff there checked my card
and claimed that I hadn't touched in at Victoria and that my balance
was -£0.30. *They issued a penalty fare.

A printout from the ticket office shows that I did touch in at
Victoria and was charged £1.50, leaving the -£0.30.

When I worked out the 40-minute issue, I thougth "aha, I've been
caught out by the OSI journey timeout" but, given the adamancy of the
staff, I discovered the rather unsatisfactory information about which
journeys the cap applies to.

In the meantime, I've been hit with liability for the balance of a
penalty fare, having paid £2.40 towards it, under threat of
administration costs and legal action if I don't pay up pronto.

So now I've got to waste my life appealing the penalty, and wondering
if I'll ever get back the £2.40, let alone the 50p overcharge beyond
the cap. *Given that I'm not going to pay the £17.60 balance in any
circumstances, I may end up facing lengthy legal action and threats,
all because I was stupid enough to believe the hype about capping and
use Oyster.

Really, why the hell should my life be ****ed up like this? *I thought
I was one of the relatively knowledgeable people. *Gawd help anyone
from out of town.

Can there possibly be any advice now other than "NEVER USE OYSTER; IT
WILL **** UP YOUR LIFE"?


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Old October 19th 10, 05:46 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: May 2005
Posts: 6,077
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?


On Oct 19, 5:23 pm, MIG wrote:
If this is true, how on Earth can I have missed it? Several SET staff
absolutely convinced that NR journeys do not contribute to the daily
cap.

Checking the fares on TfL, it's difficult to prove definitively that
they should.

Although this page http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspx offers a
link which appears to be linking to the cap for "Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail", the page it links to only mentions LO,
not NR.

If you look at this page http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx
although there's mention of capping on NR "through fares", there's no
mention of capping if you do an NR-only journey.

I am staggered. I really thought that PAYG capping was finally the
equivalent of a day travelcard, but if this is correct, then I have
been a fool.


They're *absolutely wrong* - Oyster PAYG capping applies to NR journeys too,
no question at all whatsoever. They're the ones in a cave, not you.


Does it really explain what happened to me today? I can't really see
how. At lunchtime I had £5.80 credit.

Then I did one LU + NR journey @ £1.80
balance £4.00

Later, I went to Lewisham to get a train to Victoria, missed it and
went via Cannon Street and LU @ £2.80,
balance £1.20

After less than 40 minutes, I now realise, despite doing nothing
anoraky, but just picking up some stuff, I touched in at Victoria NR,
which bleeped open the gate showing a balance of £1.20.

I expected to be charged £1 up to the off-peak zone 1 - 2 cap, but
instead couldn't get out at Lewisham. The staff there checked my card
and claimed that I hadn't touched in at Victoria and that my balance
was -£0.30. They issued a penalty fare.

A printout from the ticket office shows that I did touch in at
Victoria and was charged £1.50, leaving the -£0.30.

When I worked out the 40-minute issue, I thougth "aha, I've been
caught out by the OSI journey timeout" but, given the adamancy of the
staff, I discovered the rather unsatisfactory information about which
journeys the cap applies to.


It looks like you were indeed hit by the OSI journey timeout at Victoria
(i.e. all the journeys got joined together).

Was this a registered card? If so I guess you might get an email about a
refund from Oyster CS in the next few days w.r.t. the Oyster over charge
(Oyster CS won't be in the loop about the PF though).


In the meantime, I've been hit with liability for the balance of a
penalty fare, having paid £2.40 towards it, under threat of
administration costs and legal action if I don't pay up pronto.


Regardless of anything else, that sounds like a totally illegit way of
issuing a penalty fare - or do they really have the power to ask for
(part-)payment there and then?

I worry that initially at least the fact that you've part paid the PF might
mean that 'they' (i.e. the TOC) consider you've accepted the PF and hence
cannot then appeal, I dunno about that though.

  #4   Report Post  
Old October 19th 10, 06:04 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
MIG MIG is offline
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,154
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

On 19 Oct, 18:46, "Mizter T" wrote:
On Oct 19, 5:23 pm, MIG wrote:





If this is true, how on Earth can I have missed it? *Several SET staff
absolutely convinced that NR journeys do not contribute to the daily
cap.


Checking the fares on TfL, it's difficult to prove definitively that
they should.


Although this pagehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14837.aspxoffers a
link which appears to be linking to the cap for "Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail", the page it links to only mentions LO,
not NR.


If you look at this pagehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx
although there's mention of capping on NR "through fares", there's no
mention of capping if you do an NR-only journey.


I am staggered. *I really thought that PAYG capping was finally the
equivalent of a day travelcard, but if this is correct, then I have
been a fool.


They're *absolutely wrong* - Oyster PAYG capping applies to NR journeys too,
no question at all whatsoever. They're the ones in a cave, not you.


I was equally absolutely convinced that they were absolutely wrong
when they offered it as the reason why capping hadn't worked.

It was only when I looked for documentary evidence that I had some
difficulty.

It was grippers at the barrier who issued the PF, but then I went to
the ticket office where the regular person was equally adamant that
the cap didn't apply "I think it should as well ... people are always
getting confused; they think they can put £5.60 on and travel up and
down any number of times ... but will keep adding £2.10." Back at
the barrier, the other staff had a similar story about someone who
went to barnet and back (off peak) a few times and got charged for
several several journeys.

They even said "Did you buy it at a newsagents? Some of them are
telling people that they are putting a travelcard on it, but there is
no capping on the trains ..."

It was difficult to argue against three people all equally convinced
that capping only worked on LU and DLR.

Does it really explain what happened to me today? *I can't really see
how. *At lunchtime I had £5.80 credit.


Then I did one LU + NR journey @ £1.80
balance £4.00


Later, I went to Lewisham to get a train to Victoria, missed it and
went via Cannon Street and LU @ £2.80,
balance £1.20


After less than 40 minutes, I now realise, despite doing nothing
anoraky, but just picking up some stuff, I touched in at Victoria NR,
which bleeped open the gate showing a balance of £1.20.


I expected to be charged £1 up to the off-peak zone 1 - 2 cap, but
instead couldn't get out at Lewisham. *The staff there checked my card
and claimed that I hadn't touched in at Victoria and that my balance
was -£0.30. *They issued a penalty fare.


A printout from the ticket office shows that I did touch in at
Victoria and was charged £1.50, leaving the -£0.30.


When I worked out the 40-minute issue, I thougth "aha, I've been
caught out by the OSI journey timeout" but, given the adamancy of the
staff, I discovered the rather unsatisfactory information about which
journeys the cap applies to.


It looks like you were indeed hit by the OSI journey timeout at Victoria
(i.e. all the journeys got joined together).


Yes indeed this was the real reason for my overcharging, to which the
capping issue was an enormous sideshow.

I can't work out the £1.50 though. The whole journey would have been
less than two hours. The £1.50 seems to be the "touch in and straight
back out at the same station" fare, but why apply it after so many
intervening touches? I wasn't charged the "maximum" fare.


Was this a registered card? If so I guess you might get an email about a
refund from Oyster CS in the next few days w.r.t. the Oyster over charge
(Oyster CS won't be in the loop about the PF though).


No, but it might be fixed automatically or after a phone call. The
50p is nothing in comparison. It's all very well these things being
fixed later, but when it leaves punters clobbered with penalty fares,
it's really out of order. I don't understand why it wouldn't just let
me out with minus 30p anyway.




In the meantime, I've been hit with liability for the balance of a
penalty fare, having paid £2.40 towards it, under threat of
administration costs and legal action if I don't pay up pronto.


Regardless of anything else, that sounds like a totally illegit way of
issuing a penalty fare - or do they really have the power to ask for
(part-)payment there and then?


I didn't think they had, but it's gone in the record, so they aren't
hiding it. They seemed to be doing it deliberately to take less cash
off me on the assumption that I was going to appeal.


I worry that initially at least the fact that you've part paid the PF might
mean that 'they' (i.e. the TOC) consider you've accepted the PF and hence
cannot then appeal, I dunno about that though.


Well, who knows. There are so many "training" issues here, that who
knows what is what.
  #5   Report Post  
Old October 19th 10, 06:24 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Posts: 2
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

I worry that initially at least the fact that you've part paid the PF might
mean that 'they' (i.e. the TOC) consider you've accepted the PF and hence
cannot then appeal, I dunno about that though.


I've been on the receiving end of a penalty fare due to an Oyster Card
irregularly on NXEA, I got a £20 penalty fare from an arse of an RPI
at Liverpool Street who was convinced that I was trying to wangle my
way out of paying the fare and kept convincing me that my explanation
for an invalid journey on my Oyster Card wonít be accepted by the
appeal. I paid about £3 just to get this knob out my face but if your
appeal is successful you wonít get a refund on what you already paid
Iím afraid.

I appealed online to IRCAS with a report of the situation and
approximately 10 days later I received a very nice letter from them
informing me that my appeal has been successful and that I was within
legit circumstances when I was issued the penalty fare. I e-mailed my
details and evidence and even went as far as quoting the Penalty Fares
Rules 2002 in my appeal.

I took the letter from IRCAS with me everyday in hope that Iíd see the
RPI on my travels and about two months later my patience was rewarded
and we met again, when he asked for my ticket I pulled out my IRCAS
letter and handed it to him and smirked ďremember me?Ē to his face.
Even to his day I still see him and he refuses to look me in the face
and apologise. ******.

Most RPIs just want to scare you in to submission, a majority of them
are ****s who think they're god because they have the slightest ounce
of authority and they see the likes of passengers as extra commission
in their pockets.

Iíve found that the appeals committees will happily drop a penalty
fare if you can prove you didnít intentionally travel with a mentality
to evading the fare.

Your life won't be ****ed up by this, appeal and laugh it off.


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Old October 19th 10, 06:46 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Sep 2005
Posts: 290
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?



"MIG" wrote in message
...

Does it really explain what happened to me today? I can't really
see
how. At lunchtime I had £5.80 credit.


Then I did one LU + NR journey @ £1.80
balance £4.00


Later, I went to Lewisham to get a train to Victoria, missed it and
went via Cannon Street and LU @ £2.80,
balance £1.20


After less than 40 minutes, I now realise, despite doing nothing
anoraky, but just picking up some stuff, I touched in at Victoria
NR,
which bleeped open the gate showing a balance of £1.20.


I expected to be charged £1 up to the off-peak zone 1 - 2 cap, but
instead couldn't get out at Lewisham. The staff there checked my
card
and claimed that I hadn't touched in at Victoria and that my
balance
was -£0.30. They issued a penalty fare.


A printout from the ticket office shows that I did touch in at
Victoria and was charged £1.50, leaving the -£0.30.


When I worked out the 40-minute issue, I thougth "aha, I've been
caught out by the OSI journey timeout" but, given the adamancy of
the
staff, I discovered the rather unsatisfactory information about
which
journeys the cap applies to.


It looks like you were indeed hit by the OSI journey timeout at
Victoria
(i.e. all the journeys got joined together).


Yes indeed this was the real reason for my overcharging, to which the
capping issue was an enormous sideshow.

I can't work out the £1.50 though. The whole journey would have been
less than two hours. The £1.50 seems to be the "touch in and straight
back out at the same station" fare, but why apply it after so many
intervening touches? I wasn't charged the "maximum" fare.


You were charged 2.80 when you exited Victoria LU which is the Z12
off-peak LU+NR fare. When you touched in at Victoria NR it reopened the
journey and deducted a further 1.50 taking the total fare to 4.30 which
is the Z16 off-peak LU+NR fare. Normally this would be adjusted when you
touched out again but as you had exceeded the maximum time allowed this
did not happen.

Was this a registered card? If so I guess you might get an email
about a
refund from Oyster CS in the next few days w.r.t. the Oyster over
charge
(Oyster CS won't be in the loop about the PF though).


No, but it might be fixed automatically or after a phone call. The
50p is nothing in comparison. It's all very well these things being
fixed later, but when it leaves punters clobbered with penalty fares,
it's really out of order. I don't understand why it wouldn't just let
me out with minus 30p anyway.


The system will let you finish a journey with a negative balance, but
you can't start one. The problem here is that as the journey had timed
out it wouldn't let you through.

Peter Smyth

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Old October 19th 10, 09:06 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
MIG MIG is offline
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Posts: 3,154
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

On 19 Oct, 19:46, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...





Does it really explain what happened to me today? *I can't really
see
how. *At lunchtime I had £5.80 credit.


Then I did one LU + NR journey @ £1.80
balance £4.00


Later, I went to Lewisham to get a train to Victoria, missed it and
went via Cannon Street and LU @ £2.80,
balance £1.20


After less than 40 minutes, I now realise, despite doing nothing
anoraky, but just picking up some stuff, I touched in at Victoria
NR,
which bleeped open the gate showing a balance of £1.20.


I expected to be charged £1 up to the off-peak zone 1 - 2 cap, but
instead couldn't get out at Lewisham. *The staff there checked my
card
and claimed that I hadn't touched in at Victoria and that my
balance
was -£0.30. *They issued a penalty fare.


A printout from the ticket office shows that I did touch in at
Victoria and was charged £1.50, leaving the -£0.30.


When I worked out the 40-minute issue, I thougth "aha, I've been
caught out by the OSI journey timeout" but, given the adamancy of
the
staff, I discovered the rather unsatisfactory information about
which
journeys the cap applies to.


It looks like you were indeed hit by the OSI journey timeout at
Victoria
(i.e. all the journeys got joined together).


Yes indeed this was the real reason for my overcharging, to which the
capping issue was an enormous sideshow.


I can't work out the £1.50 though. *The whole journey would have been
less than two hours. *The £1.50 seems to be the "touch in and straight
back out at the same station" fare, but why apply it after so many
intervening touches? *I wasn't charged the "maximum" fare.


You were charged 2.80 when you exited Victoria LU which is the Z12
off-peak LU+NR fare. When you touched in at Victoria NR it reopened the
journey and deducted a further 1.50 taking the total fare to 4.30 which
is the Z16 off-peak LU+NR fare. Normally this would be adjusted when you
touched out again but as you had exceeded the maximum time allowed this
did not happen.

Was this a registered card? If so I guess you might get an email
about a
refund from Oyster CS in the next few days w.r.t. the Oyster over
charge
(Oyster CS won't be in the loop about the PF though).


No, but it might be fixed automatically or after a phone call. *The
50p is nothing in comparison. *It's all very well these things being
fixed later, but when it leaves punters clobbered with penalty fares,
it's really out of order. *I don't understand why it wouldn't just let
me out with minus 30p anyway.


The system will let you finish a journey with a negative balance, but
you can't start one. The problem here is that as the journey had timed
out it wouldn't let you through.

Peter Smyth


I'm not convinced it had timed out though. It was less than two hours
in total, but what is the journey timeout if it ends at the same
station?

Also, a timeout would normally result in a maximum fare for
uncompletion, but it didn't.

Whatever else, it has also fuct up the capping, because I used a bus
this evening and was charged the full amount.
  #8   Report Post  
Old October 19th 10, 09:08 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Posts: 86
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

There is one relatively simple way of preventing penalty fares being
incorrectly applied, but you won't like it - auto top-up.

Doesn't stop the timeouts or incorrect charging, but your balance
won't drop below £5 so it isn't going to attract a PF.

I've said before that I find Oyster reliable for the journeys I make
when in London, but I guess I don't trust it enough to risk a balance
close to zero.
  #9   Report Post  
Old October 19th 10, 09:15 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
MIG MIG is offline
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Posts: 3,154
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?

On 19 Oct, 19:24, TRAXX F140 wrote:
I worry that initially at least the fact that you've part paid the PF might
mean that 'they' (i.e. the TOC) consider you've accepted the PF and hence
cannot then appeal, I dunno about that though.


I've been on the receiving end of a penalty fare due to an Oyster Card
irregularly on NXEA, I got a £20 penalty fare from an arse of an RPI
at Liverpool Street who was convinced that I was trying to wangle my
way out of paying the fare and kept convincing me that my explanation
for an invalid journey on my Oyster Card wonít be accepted by the
appeal. I paid about £3 just to get this knob out my face but if your
appeal is successful you wonít get a refund on what you already paid
Iím afraid.


I bluddy will. I will not let that drop. I was not liable for a
penny.

If it was my fault, I get charged a penalty. Why the hell should I
just laugh off £2.40 when the TOC wouldn't laugh off 30p? They should
be paying me a Penalty Refund (© me).


I appealed online to IRCAS with a report of the situation and
approximately 10 days later I received a very nice letter from them
informing me that my appeal has been successful and that I was within
legit circumstances when I was issued the penalty fare. I e-mailed my
details and evidence and even went as far as quoting the Penalty Fares
Rules 2002 in my appeal.

I took the letter from IRCAS with me everyday in hope that Iíd see the
RPI on my travels and about two months later my patience was rewarded
and we met again, when he asked for my ticket I pulled out my IRCAS
letter and handed it to him and smirked ďremember me?Ē to his face.
Even to his day I still see him and he refuses to look me in the face
and apologise. ******.

Most RPIs just want to scare you in to submission, a majority of them
are ****s who think they're god because they have the slightest ounce
of authority and they see the likes of passengers as extra commission
in their pockets.

Iíve found that the appeals committees will happily drop a penalty
fare if you can prove you didnít intentionally travel with a mentality
to evading the fare.

Your life won't be ****ed up by this, appeal and laugh it off.


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Old October 19th 10, 09:18 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Posts: 460
Default No NR Oyster Capping: Have I Been in a Cave?



"MIG" wrote in message
...

Whatever else, it has also fuct up the capping, because I used a bus
this evening and was charged the full amount.


AIUI from previous discussions it will, because any unresolved journeys are
ignored for the capping calculation - so if you add up just your problem
free journeys you mightn't get near the cap?

Paul S



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