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#1
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A good argument against the bendy bus
See:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? |
#2
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:
See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such excessive demand for buses to central London. As the 25 is the only direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be expected? People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses. I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them! This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading" attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still trying to get on would actually leave! Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs. Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. What I can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded as your Stratford video. Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme circumstances. -- Paul C via Google |
#3
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote: See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such excessive demand for buses to central London. *As the 25 is the only direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be expected? *People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses. I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them! This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading" attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still trying to get on would actually leave! Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs. Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. *What I can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded as your Stratford video. *Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme circumstances. -- Paul C via Google Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances. At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get on. I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to the staircase to go upstairs. Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when it hits the streets. |
#4
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On Jan 6, 3:00*pm, George wrote:
On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote: On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote: See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such excessive demand for buses to central London. *As the 25 is the only direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be expected? *People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses. I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them! This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading" attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still trying to get on would actually leave! Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs. Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. *What I can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded as your Stratford video. *Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme circumstances. -- Paul C via Google Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances. At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get on. I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to the staircase to go upstairs. Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when it hits the streets.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Can't see that it has much to do with being a bendy bus - sounds more like someone who has a grudge against them. It appears that the new Borismaster will, in practice, allow boarding through *all* 3 doors - so it won't be any different (the conductor/ PCSO etc will have little/no real control). Robert |
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A good argument against the bendy bus
"Robert" wrote: [snip] It appears that the new Borismaster will, in practice, allow boarding through *all* 3 doors - so it won't be any different (the conductor/ PCSO etc will have little/no real control). Just to add, as yet it's not at all clear as to how the Borismaster will work when in OPO mode (i.e. driver only) - the back door/platform seems as though it'll only be on offer when there's a conductor/whatever on board, but I wouldn't automatically assume that the bus will work on a board-either-door basis (like the new non-bendy Citaros on the 'Red Arrow' 507/521 routes) as opposed to working in the conventional OPO manner of board front door, exit from the middle. |
#6
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On 6 Jan, 16:13, Robert wrote:
On Jan 6, 3:00*pm, George wrote: On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote: On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote: See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such excessive demand for buses to central London. *As the 25 is the only direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be expected? *People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses. I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them! This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading" attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still trying to get on would actually leave! Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs. Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. *What I can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded as your Stratford video. *Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme circumstances. -- Paul C via Google Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances. At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get on. I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to the staircase to go upstairs. Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when it hits the streets.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Can't see that it has much to do with being a bendy bus - sounds more like someone who has a grudge against them. It appears that the new Borismaster will, in practice, allow boarding through *all* 3 doors - so it won't be any different (the conductor/ PCSO etc will have little/no real control). Robert- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Your first statement makes no sense whatsoever! As for the Borismnaster, let's wait and see! |
#7
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On 6 Jan, 18:16, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 07:00:59 -0800 (PST), George wrote: On 5 Jan, 12:01, Paul Corfield wrote: On Jan 5, 11:32 am, George wrote: See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? If that is the route 25 at Stratford video shot on Boxing Day then no it is not really acceptable. The bit you conveniently miss is that there was industrial action on the tube that day that caused such excessive demand for buses to central London. As the 25 is the only direct option from Stratford then I'd have to ask what else would be expected? People will typically adopt a herd mentality and similar scenes have been seen on other LUL strike days with double deckers just as badly affected. I therefore fail to see the relevance of your post title about it being "an argument" against bendy buses. I have recently been to Hong Kong where I stood and watched one of the highest demand locations for buses in the entire place during the PM peak. This is Hung Hom in Kowloon near the Cross Harbour Tunnel. The queues for buses stretch right along the bus stop area, up flights of stairs, across a bridge and into the adjacent railway station. I stood and observed people crushing into 12m double deck buses to the point where people were jammed against the windscreen and people were jammed against the front doors - when the driver could actually close them! This was standard practice for bus after bus after bus and many routes operate on higher frequencies than London. This "keep on loading" attitude applied even when the next bus was clearly in sight and waiting to get on the stop - if only the one that people were still trying to get on would actually leave! Ironically in one photo I took it is clear that "seats were available on the upper deck" but even HK commuters don't always go upstairs. Whether a bendy bus would be any better or worse I can't say. What I can say is that double deckers - even very high capacity HK style ones as often touted as the solution for route 25 - can be just as crowded as your Stratford video. Therefore I don't see that one vehicle type is necessarily any better than any other in such extreme circumstances. Yes I appreciate that there was a tube strike and it was exceptional circumstances however such scenes are not unheard of on the 25, and other bendy bus routes, in normal circumstances. Please tell me how the exceptional circumstances that gave rise to the video being filmed are also normal circumstances on the 25 and other bendy routes? Make your mind up George. *Why not simply say you hate bendy buses on central London routes and then we all know where we stand. Dressing up the same old issue under a new title won't help anyone. **** Presumably somebody just had a camera/phone handy? I don't use the word hate (that's for bitter and twisted people) but like many others I do think open boarding bendy buses are totally unsuitable for Central London. At least on other buses there is some sort of order, the driver or conductor has some sort of control over how many people try and get on. Sorry but this is simply not true. During strikes buses of all shapes and sizes end up besieged with people pushing and shoving horrendously and trying to board via the middle doors and the emergency exits. I've seen it with my own eyes lots of times *in the suburbs*. *Most tube strikes I try to avoid the central area but photos on Flickr plus television and newspaper coverage provide plenty of evidence of what transpires. You get the siege mentality when buses are late. I've seen my fair share of people refusing to stop boarding a bus when there's been a gap of 30-40 minutes. **** Yes but the driver does have some control over the situation, with uncontrolled boarding through three doors the driver has no control whatsoever, the scenes in that footage are like something from a third world country. I would imagine the loads on the buses that you mention in Hong Kong would seriously restrict the drivers visibility whilst driving and I would imagine that, as with London, it is more a case of standing passengers on the lower deck preventing other people from getting to the staircase to go upstairs. The simple fact is that those loads occur every single working day because demand levels are so high despite big vehicles and high frequencies. Drivers are used to driving buses under such crush conditions. *HK buses are not fitted with "Bus Full" signs for no reason. Here is a photo of a full bus just to show you how busy they get - this is not from my most recent trip. *What I witnessed this time was worse than this photo. http://www.flickr.com/photos/2475974.../set-721576125... To be fair to HK commuters they will typically search out every seat - the example I quoted was a rare exception but you can see it on the photograph. *I haven't put it on Flickr yet but I'll post the link when I do. **** Obviously potentially dangerous if the driver cannot see the kerb. Oh well let's see whether the Borismaster offers any improvements when it hits the streets. Well we will have to see but I have my doubts as you know from many, many exchanges in another place. *The real problem is that no one knows how a Borismaster will work in practice in terms of doors, stairs, platform, staffing and ticket / Oyster validation. *The mock up looks remarkably like a bendy bus on the lower deck with validating devices by every door. *That should be giving you the shakes already given it rather implies open boarding which you don't believe works in a London context ..... which is where we came in! -- Paul C- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - **** I'm not entirely convinced about the Borismaster but we'll see. |
#8
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote:
See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? You don't queue for a bendy bus. You can't as it has three doors. |
#9
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A good argument against the bendy bus
On Jan 5, 1:04*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:32*am, George wrote: See: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=870_1293539979 Would anybody seriously suggest this is acceptable? You don't queue for a bendy bus. You can't as it has three doors. I had to go from my house in Walthamstow to Waterloo on Boxing Day, and it involved a creative use of bus routes in order to get the- W15 to Bakers Arms 55 to Southampton Row 59 to Waterloo. Advantage in using the 55 was that it starts from the Bakers Arms and therefore I was able to get on. it got progressively more crowded, and at Shoreditch someone tried to get on through the centre doors, saying they had been waiting for over an hour and every bus was full. So Yes, I agree that the video is not an argument against the bendy buses. However, the number of people on the bus was clearly in excess of capacity, to dangerous limits. Suppose there had been an accident? I remember being in a similar situation at Trafalgar Square in the early hours of New Years day before the tube ran all night. The driver of the bus (an N26) refused to move off and called the police, who ordered several people, including me, off the bus. I suppose it did not help that there were Engineering Works on the DLR between Stratford and Bow Church on that day, otherwise people could have used the DLR to get at least part of the way into London That video was taken at Stratford Broadway if I am not mistaken. You could have walked for a few stops in the opposite direction towards Forest Gate in order to stand more of a chance of being able to board.. However, it was interesting that a 425 drew up behind the bendy bus. You could have got on the 425 to go to Bow Church to (a) pick up the DLR or (b) pick up the the no. 8 or 205 buses, both of which start from Bow Church Alternatively you could have stayed on the 425 to :- (a) Homerton Hospital and then the 242 or (b) Clapton Pond and then the 38. In London, it does pay to have alternative routes up your sleeve in case the tube is disrupted. |
#10
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A good argument against the bendy bus
I am no fan of bendybuses, but would put forward this appalling video
as much stronger evidence for banning Bob Crowe and his ilk! M.M. |
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