Can someone tell journeyplanner.org and all the other websites, apps,
etc etc, that if you want to go from Bowes Park to London Bridge, it's
a hell of a lot easier to change at Moorgate (down one tiny escalator
- about 20 seconds all in) than at Old Street (which takes about 3
minutes).

Everywhere recommends changing at Old Street, which I cannot
understand. Moorgate is so much easier.

Incidentally, when using PAYG, there's a yellow touchpad at the top of
the escalator. I have an annual so this doesn't concern me personally,
but merely out of curiosity, if a PAYG user did not touch that pad
with one's Oyster while making the transfer, could he or she be
charged for any non-starting or non-ending journeys? What with Bowes
Park being a National Rail PAYG fare-station rather than a TfL PAYG
fare-station.

(I know that TfL have just announced the getting rid of the £4
overcharge for when people forget to touch in or touch out - but if I
understand it correctly, this is only for when the system spots a
regular journey. And I guess it won't apply in the case of the NR PAYG
journeys either, though I haven't read confirmation of that, yet.)

"Tristán White" wrote:

Can someone tell journeyplanner.org and all the other websites, apps,
etc etc, that if you want to go from Bowes Park to London Bridge, it's
a hell of a lot easier to change at Moorgate (down one tiny escalator
- about 20 seconds all in) than at Old Street (which takes about 3
minutes).

Everywhere recommends changing at Old Street, which I cannot
understand. Moorgate is so much easier.

I think journey planners default to recommend changing at the first
available interchange point (in this case Old Street) - indeed if you ask
the Journey Planner for the reverse journey, it'll recommend you change at
Moorgate.

(As an aside, going northbound I prefer changing at Old St - at Moorgate,
one potentially needs to work out which of the two trains on the two
platforms is going to leave first, which of course isn't an issue at Old
St - then again I'm often in a rush!)


Incidentally, when using PAYG, there's a yellow touchpad at the top of
the escalator. I have an annual so this doesn't concern me personally,
but merely out of curiosity, if a PAYG user did not touch that pad
with one's Oyster while making the transfer, could he or she be
charged for any non-starting or non-ending journeys? What with Bowes
Park being a National Rail PAYG fare-station rather than a TfL PAYG
fare-station.

No, passengers only need to touch-in at the start of their journey, and out
at the end of it.

The Oyster touchpads you refer to at Moorgate and Old St are provided for
passengers arriving on FCC (Great Northern) using paper rail tickets to
touch-in in order to start their Tube journey on Oyster PAYG, and likewise
to end their Tube journey when heading for the FCC platforms.

However if an Oyster PAYG user touches on one of these touchpads
mid-journey, there's no ill-effect at all - I've done just this to test it
out. (Same applies to say the Oyster touchpads located within Stratford
station - and they're provided for the same reason too.)


(I know that TfL have just announced the getting rid of the £4
overcharge for when people forget to touch in or touch out - but if I
understand it correctly, this is only for when the system spots a
regular journey. And I guess it won't apply in the case of the NR PAYG
journeys either, though I haven't read confirmation of that, yet.)

I hadn't clocked this development until you mentioned it - here's the report
from Monday in the Evening Standard:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23983998.do

A few comments - it's wrong to say that they're getting rid of the "Maximum
Oyster fare", that's not what's going to happen - rather as the ES story
states they are going to try and spot the "symmetry of repeated journeys",
and if there's the occasional failure to touch-in or out then it seems
they'll process a refund to that card. (However it simply won't be possible
to spot the "symmetry of repeated journeys" if a cardholder always fails to
touch-in or touch-out.)

Also, just to be up-to-date, what you describe as the "£4 overcharge", TfL
refers to as the "Maximum Oyster fare" (when it was £4 they referred to it
as the "maximum cash fare") - note that it's no longer set at £4, rather it
actually varies station by station but can be up to £7.40 - more info he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14873.aspx

(If you ever touch-in at an ungated station, then so long as you knew what
your balance was beforehand you can then go back to the ticket machine and
check your current Oyster balance and determine what level the "max Oyster
fare" is set to at that particular station - e.g. when I did this at a
suburban outer-London NR station the other day, it came out at £4.40.)

Lastly, I don't know why you think that this new refund system described in
the ES article wouldn't apply to NR PAYG journeys - I can't see any reason
why it wouldn't - well unless the TOCs failed to play along it, I suppose -
however given that a failure to touch-in or out is far far more likely when
making an NR journey (or journey with an NR component), given that so many
NR stations in London are ungated, I'm pretty sure it'll apply regardless of
whether it's an NR, Tube or combination journey being made.

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 08:43:59 -0700 (PDT), Tristán White wrote:
Can someone tell journeyplanner.org and all the other websites, apps,
etc etc, that if you want to go from Bowes Park to London Bridge, it's
a hell of a lot easier to change at Moorgate (down one tiny escalator
- about 20 seconds all in) than at Old Street (which takes about 3
minutes).

Everywhere recommends changing at Old Street, which I cannot
understand. Moorgate is so much easier.

Old Street to Moorgate on First Capital Connect is timetabled at 5
minutes. Old Street to Moorgate on the Northern line is timetabled at 1
minute. Even with the longer change at Old Street changing there is on
paper quicker.

Incidentally, when using PAYG, there's a yellow touchpad at the top of
the escalator. I have an annual so this doesn't concern me personally,
but merely out of curiosity, if a PAYG user did not touch that pad
with one's Oyster while making the transfer, could he or she be
charged for any non-starting or non-ending journeys? What with Bowes
Park being a National Rail PAYG fare-station rather than a TfL PAYG
fare-station.

PAYG users can ignore those touchpads and I do. I assume they are of
value to people that hold a National Rail only ticket that want to
continue their journey on the Underground.

(I know that TfL have just announced the getting rid of the £4
overcharge for when people forget to touch in or touch out - but if I
understand it correctly, this is only for when the system spots a
regular journey. And I guess it won't apply in the case of the NR PAYG
journeys either, though I haven't read confirmation of that, yet.)

I think it is only for missed touch outs, not missed touch ins.

David

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:24:22 +0100, Mizter T wrote:

"Tristán White" wrote:
(I know that TfL have just announced the getting rid of the £4
overcharge for when people forget to touch in or touch out - but if I
understand it correctly, this is only for when the system spots a
regular journey. And I guess it won't apply in the case of the NR PAYG
journeys either, though I haven't read confirmation of that, yet.)

I hadn't clocked this development until you mentioned it - here's the report
from Monday in the Evening Standard:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23983998.do

The TfL press release is at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/20905.aspx

In article ,
(David Walters) wrote:

Old Street to Moorgate on First Capital Connect is timetabled at 5
minutes. Old Street to Moorgate on the Northern line is timetabled at 1
minute. Even with the longer change at Old Street changing there is on
paper quicker.

Those are the infamous "charter minutes" on FCC surely? It can't really take
5 minutes from Old St to Moorgate.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"David Walters" wrote:

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:24:22 +0100, Mizter T wrote:

"Tristán White" wrote:
(I know that TfL have just announced the getting rid of the £4
overcharge for when people forget to touch in or touch out - but if I
understand it correctly, this is only for when the system spots a
regular journey. And I guess it won't apply in the case of the NR PAYG
journeys either, though I haven't read confirmation of that, yet.)

I hadn't clocked this development until you mentioned it - here's the
report
from Monday in the Evening Standard:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23983998.do

The TfL press release is at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/20905.aspx

Thanks - I should have checked for that!

Here's a few bits from the press release:

---quote---
A new system will help Oyster passengers who occasionally forget to touch
out.

As part of a series of innovations to improve customers' experience of
Oyster, Transport for London (TfL) has introduced a new facility for Oyster
pay as you go customers who occasionally forget to touch out at the end of
their Tube, DLR, Overground or National Rail journey.

Under Oyster terms and conditions, customers who do not touch out to
complete their journey are charged the maximum Zone 1-6 fare.

But TfL has set up a new system so that if a passenger occasionally fails to
touch in and out then Oyster will aim to calculate their likely journey and
charge the appropriate fare.
[...]
Touching in is vital

Only journeys that have been started and are missing the touchout at the end
of the journey are eligible for completion by the new system.

It is intended to help people who occasionally forget to touch out and
therefore the system only operates once a month for each Oyster card.
[...continues...]
---/quote---


So, it definitely covers NR journeys, it'll only work once a month, and only
if that card is used to make a regular journey.

In other words, carry on touching-in and touching-out!

In message ,
wrote:
Old Street to Moorgate on First Capital Connect is timetabled at 5
minutes. Old Street to Moorgate on the Northern line is timetabled at 1
minute. Even with the longer change at Old Street changing there is on
paper quicker.

Those are the infamous "charter minutes" on FCC surely? It can't really take
5 minutes from Old St to Moorgate.

Not "charter minutes", but the entire timing allowance for problems over
the whole journey will be included in that timing.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

On Sep 7, 5:49*pm, David Walters wrote:
SNIP
Old Street to Moorgate on First Capital Connect is timetabled at 5
minutes. Old Street to Moorgate on the Northern line is timetabled at 1
minute. Even with the longer change at Old Street changing there is on
paper quicker.
SNIP


I've never known it to take longer than perhaps 2 minutes. Yes, it
does tend to be slower than the tube, as it enters Moorgate relatively
slowly, but never 5 minutes.

The interchange walk at Old Street, however, is easily three minutes,
whereas Moorgate is probably about 20 seconds. And of course, involves
very little walking, as it's a single escalator going from one
platform to the other, whereas the Old Street one is much more labour
intensive!

Thanks all of you for the explanations... and also for that news (to
me) -- thanks Mizter T -- that it's not a £4 penalty but a "maximum
fare" which can now shockingly be almost double that. Now, I don't
know if you'll agree with me, but I don't think that's been very
heavily advertised. I heard a lot about £4 when the scheme launched,
but not a lot about "maximum fares" and "anything up to £7.40" now
that the fares have gone up. Most people will see it as some sort of
"fine" even if it's in fact a "penalty fare", and most people will
expect that any increase in this amount will be advertised clearly, as
other fines for smoking etc are advertised fairly clearly.

It almost seems that this has crept in quite quietly. A bit like the
increase in the daily caps, which appears to have increased
considerably this year - in the past, you'd know that after a couple
of tube journeys and a bus journey, you would probably not to charged
anything on the following bus journey... but now, my friend who uses
PAYG decides to take a bus for a couple of stops expecting it to be
free, and suddenly discovers that £1.80 comes off the credit.

Anyone else with me that, although I salute Boris for the Bike scheme,
the sooner Ken gets back in charge the better? Like him or loathe him,
he DID bring better value to the commuter while keeping the system
running fairly well. Or is that for another usenet forum?

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Tristán White wrote:
On Sep 7, 5:49Â*pm, David Walters wrote:
Old Street to Moorgate on First Capital Connect is timetabled at 5
minutes. Old Street to Moorgate on the Northern line is timetabled at 1
minute. Even with the longer change at Old Street changing there is on
paper quicker.

I've never known it to take longer than perhaps 2 minutes. Yes, it
does tend to be slower than the tube, as it enters Moorgate relatively
slowly, but never 5 minutes.

I've been timing my slightly randomly selected morning peak hours trips
between Old Street and Moorgate. From doors opening at Old Street to
doors opening again I've measured 3m4s, 4m4s and 3m18s.

On Sep 14, 7:29*pm, David Walters wrote:

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Tristán White wrote:

On Sep 7, 5:49*pm, David Walters wrote:
Old Street to Moorgate on First Capital Connect is timetabled at 5
minutes. Old Street to Moorgate on the Northern line is timetabled at 1
minute. Even with the longer change at Old Street changing there is on
paper quicker.

I've never known it to take longer than perhaps 2 minutes. Yes, it
does tend to be slower than the tube, as it enters Moorgate relatively
slowly, but never 5 minutes.

I've been timing my slightly randomly selected morning peak hours trips
between Old Street and Moorgate. From doors opening at Old Street to
doors opening again I've measured 3m4s, 4m4s and 3m18s.

Please David, I don't think there's any need to sully utl with
something as vulgar as first hand evidence!