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Old September 17th 11, 11:11 AM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sep 17, 2:44*am, Ken Wheatley wrote:
On 2011-09-16 22:23:00 +0000, Railwayman said:

There wont be any need for trains once cheap electric vehicles become
more widely used.


Especially if we have nuclear-brewed electricity that's 'too cheap to meter'.


Cars have been the future of transportation for quite some time, and
probably will be for a while! What is the range of a battery only car?

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Old September 17th 11, 12:03 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sep 17, 4:44*am, Andy Breen wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:32:22 +0100, Robert Cox wrote:
On 2011-09-17 12:11:41 +0100, 77002 said:


On Sep 17, 2:44*am, Ken Wheatley wrote:
On 2011-09-16 22:23:00 +0000, Railwayman said:


There wont be any need for trains once cheap electric vehicles become
more widely used.


Especially if we have nuclear-brewed electricity that's 'too cheap to
meter'.


Cars have been the future of transportation for quite some time, and
probably will be for a while! *What is the range of a battery only car?


How long is a piece of string...?


About 100 miles for the first tranche of large-production mainstream
designs, seems to be the consensus. At the top end 200-odd miles seems
to be do-able - if you've got the money to pay for the vehicle.

Charge times are still the major issue, though. It's unlikely that the
battery-only car could be viable other than as an urban or local hopabout
without investment in a supporting infrastructure of battery-change
stations (which, after all, is slightly less daft than a supporting
infrastructure of places storing and dispensing highly flammable
fluid.. ;-)

Then there's the potential bottleneck of raw material for battery
production. It's not for nothing that many of those minerals are referred
to as "rare earths".

Thank you.
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Old September 17th 11, 01:04 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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Cars have been the future of transportation for quite some time, and
probably will be for a while!


Hmm.. transport came in this order first the roads then the canals
then the railways then air.

Railways are a new technology and it's only the f**ked up transport
economics we have in this country, denying a fair playing field for
railways, that has stopped them reigning supreme the way they do
elsewhere.

Railways are indeed a nineteenth century technology but proper roads
were invented by the Romans, which makes roads an outdated BC
technology.

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Mind you, if we turned our cities over to cycles, affording them
similar priority, that would probably be the finish for cars.

I personally would far prefer to do my numerous short car journeys on
a bike and it's only the lack of a death wish that has stopped me from
doing so.
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Old September 17th 11, 01:40 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sep 17, 6:04*am, allantracy wrote:
Cars have been the future of transportation for quite some time, and
probably will be for a while!


Hmm.. transport came in this order first the roads then the canals
then the railways then air.

Railways are a new technology and it's only the f**ked up transport
economics we have in this country, denying a fair playing field for
railways, that has stopped them reigning supreme the way they do
elsewhere.

Railways are indeed a nineteenth century technology but proper roads
were invented by the Romans, which makes roads an outdated BC
technology.

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Mind you, if we turned our cities over to cycles, affording them
similar priority, that would probably be the finish for cars.

I personally would far prefer to do my numerous short car journeys on
a bike and it's only the lack of a death wish that has stopped me from
doing so.


Should have typed "Electic Cars have been the future of
transportation for quite some time". At one point there were electic
charging points in some parking lots in California. They have all
gone now.
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Old September 17th 11, 02:21 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient, so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be made
efficient. One possibility is a means of transmitting electricity direct to
vehicles. The railways have solved this with OHLE or 3rd rail supply. It has
been done with road vehicles (trolleybuses).

The other possibility is an efficient means of storing energy in road
vehicles without reliance on carbon emissions. In principle this can be done
by using electricity from renewables to electrolyse water, using the
hydrogen as the energy store, and regenerating the electricity on board in a
fuel cell.

Peter



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Old September 17th 11, 02:29 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,


Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.


See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

The other possibility is an efficient means of storing energy in road
vehicles without reliance on carbon emissions. In principle this can be
done by using electricity from renewables to electrolyse water, using
the hydrogen as the energy store, and regenerating the electricity on
board in a fuel cell.


In other words, an energy storage medium with output converted to
electricity..

Last I heard (about a year ago, and from someone involved heavily in
hydrogen cell development), H2 cells and batteries were technologies
advancing at comparable rates, and although he was backing H2 cells, it
was too early to call which would win out.




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Old September 17th 11, 02:39 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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"Andy Breen" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,


Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.


See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome, but
the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery without
significant energy losses.

Peter


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Old September 17th 11, 02:44 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sep 17, 7:39*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Andy Breen" wrote in message

...



On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:


"allantracy" wrote


The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.


Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?


Battery technology can never be made efficient,


Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..


so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.


See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge cycling
efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?


charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome, but
the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery without
significant energy losses.


Are there not also weight, and size issues with batteries. Gasoline/
petrolium is fairly light and very efficient. A trunk full of
batteries is heavy, even if we are talking about the recent battery
developments.

There is clearly something to be said for Electric/trolley buses.
They are still very much in use in Boston, MA and San Francisco, CA.
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Old September 17th 11, 03:14 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:39:20 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"Andy Breen" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:

"allantracy" wrote

The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded to
run on electricity.

Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would that
be?

Battery technology can never be made efficient,


Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..

so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.


See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge
cycling efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?

charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome,
but the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery
without significant energy losses.


More chemistry than physics in a battery, surely. The physical
limitations apply equally to any stored-energy medium (and thus as much
to H2 tankage as power stations as batteries..) - you always get less out
than you put in.

OK, I'll grant you that heat dissipation can be an issue in charging
batteries, but the degree to which it's an issue depends on the type of
battery (thinking back, here, to discussions of heat issues in spacecraft
that couldn't depend on constant solar charging..).

The real question is - is charge cycle efficiency enough of a restrictive
factor. It's not like the alternatives don't have serious issues of their
own. Inductive charging or power supply is lossy, H2 is /really/ good at
leaking out of storage (and producing the stuff and compressing or
liquifying it are all monsterously lossy processes). Given that we (as a
planet) are not short of renewable electricity production potential, but
that most of it is inconveniently placed for current - and even more so
for likely - population concentrations, any "good enough" means of energy
storage is likely to be, well, "good enough".

--
Speaking for myself, and no-one but myself
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Old September 17th 11, 03:31 PM posted to uk.railway,misc.transport.urban-transit,uk.transport.london
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On Sep 17, 8:22*am, Andy Breen wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:44:04 -0700, 77002 wrote:
On Sep 17, 7:39*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Andy Breen" wrote in message


...


On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:21:58 +0100, Peter Masson wrote:


"allantracy" wrote


The future for cars looks very bleak unless they can be persuaded
to run on electricity.


Though there was a steam car around a while ago how ironic would
that be?


Battery technology can never be made efficient,


Define the meaning you are picking for "efficient" in this context..


so even with nuclear or
other renewable generation of electricity, battery cars can never be
made efficient.


See above. What do you mean by this? Cost? Energy density? Charge
cycling efficiency? Lifespan? Charging time?


charge cycle efficiency. The other issues can in principle be overcome,
but the laws of physics will not let you charge and discharge a battery
without significant energy losses.


Are there not also weight, and size issues with batteries. *Gasoline/
petrolium is fairly light and very efficient. *A trunk full of batteries
is heavy, even if we are talking about the recent battery developments.


But the break point between the two is a moving thing, not least because
IC engines have been getting more complex as additional pollution control
gear has been added.

Example, from the bottom end of the power range I'll admit. Small electric
outboard motors for boats are now getting very competitive with small
petrol outboards. They cost more, but they are much lighter and easier to
handle and much cheaper to run. In fact, a local builder offers them as
their preferred option on boats up to 23'...

http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/home.html

Five years ago none of that would have been true - electric outboards
back then were very much what they'd been for the previous 90-odd years.
These things really are a different world (and yes, I've seen one in use,
and they do seem to have run-times comparable with a small petrol engine
with integral tank. When I need to replace the 6bhp o/b I have then I'll
be seriously considering one).

That's a low-power example, but it's not going to stop there.

Often wondered if there is an application for a streetcar/tram or
electric/trolly bus that runs under wires where practical, but
utilizes batteries for stretches where wires are not practical, or
unsightly.

An electro diesel tram train might be another possibility.


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