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Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
Just came across this on BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 Can't help thinking that Tfl are being a bit optimistic if they think that only 20% of trains will be manually operated by 2017 and all lines will have fully remote train operations by 2020. Would that not require completely new trains track and signalling on the affected lines? The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. "Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. Ticket office closures, reductions in hours and job losses are more likely though (I would have thought) However given TfL's recent experience with the unions, this is more likely to happen gradually over a number of years rather than in one fell swoop. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"Paul" wrote in message
Just came across this on BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 Can't help thinking that Tfl are being a bit optimistic if they think that only 20% of trains will be manually operated by 2017 and all lines will have fully remote train operations by 2020. Would that not require completely new trains track and signalling on the affected lines? The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. "Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. Ticket office closures, reductions in hours and job losses are more likely though (I would have thought) However given TfL's recent experience with the unions, this is more likely to happen gradually over a number of years rather than in one fell swoop. I don't think it suggests unmanned trains, just that DLR-style operation would spread across other lines as new automated trains are introduced. All existing LU trains from the 1992 stock onwards are capable of being driven automatically, and the driver's role is already reduced to that of the door close button operator, something that could be done just as well from control stations anywhere along the train, and not just from a closed cab. Once the 1972 and 73 stocks have been replaced, there won't be any remaining pure manual LU trains. Automatically driven trains have been in use in other places for decades (eg, Vancouver's Skytrain, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_%28Vancouver%29) See the longer version of this story in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...1500-jobs.html Obviously you need to filter out Bob Crow's remarks, which directly contradict the proposals (eg, they are *not* suggesting unstaffed stations, unmanned service trains or closing every ticket office). |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Oct 24, 12:05*pm, "Recliner" wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message Just came across this on BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 Can't help thinking that Tfl are being a bit optimistic if they think that only 20% of trains will be manually operated by 2017 and all lines will have fully remote train operations by 2020. *Would that not require completely new trains track and signalling on the affected lines? The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. *"Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. Ticket office closures, reductions in hours and job losses are more likely though (I would have thought) However given TfL's recent experience with the unions, this is more likely to happen gradually over a number of years rather than in one fell swoop. I don't think it suggests unmanned trains, just that DLR-style operation would spread across other lines as new automated trains are introduced. All existing LU trains from the 1992 stock onwards are capable of being driven automatically, and the driver's role is already reduced to that of the door close button operator, something that could be done just as well from control stations anywhere along the train, and not just from a closed cab. Once the 1972 and 73 stocks have been replaced, there won't be any remaining pure manual LU trains. Automatically driven trains have been in use in other places for decades (eg, Vancouver's Skytrain,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_%28Vancouver%29) See the longer version of this story in the Telegraph:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ansport/884524... Obviously you need to filter out Bob Crow's remarks, which directly contradict the proposals (eg, they are *not* suggesting unstaffed stations, unmanned service trains or closing every ticket office).- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I take your point about automated trains - and indeed trains on the Victoria Line have always been automated. However, the rolling stock has been built on the assumption that there will be someone in the cab to press the start button etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is a simple matter to adapt these trains so that this operation can be performed remotely from a control centre. Perhaps what they are talking about is that future new rolling stock will be built so that it is like the current DLR trains, whereby the door closing and opening can be done from anywhere along the train. However, all DLR trains can be driven manually if required so this feature would have to be incorporated into tube rolling stock. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"Paul" wrote in message
On Oct 24, 12:05 pm, "Recliner" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message Just came across this on BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 Can't help thinking that Tfl are being a bit optimistic if they think that only 20% of trains will be manually operated by 2017 and all lines will have fully remote train operations by 2020. Would that not require completely new trains track and signalling on the affected lines? The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. "Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. Ticket office closures, reductions in hours and job losses are more likely though (I would have thought) However given TfL's recent experience with the unions, this is more likely to happen gradually over a number of years rather than in one fell swoop. I don't think it suggests unmanned trains, just that DLR-style operation would spread across other lines as new automated trains are introduced. All existing LU trains from the 1992 stock onwards are capable of being driven automatically, and the driver's role is already reduced to that of the door close button operator, something that could be done just as well from control stations anywhere along the train, and not just from a closed cab. Once the 1972 and 73 stocks have been replaced, there won't be any remaining pure manual LU trains. Automatically driven trains have been in use in other places for decades (eg, Vancouver's Skytrain,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_%28Vancouver%29) See the longer version of this story in the Telegraph:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ansport/884524... Obviously you need to filter out Bob Crow's remarks, which directly contradict the proposals (eg, they are *not* suggesting unstaffed stations, unmanned service trains or closing every ticket office).- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I take your point about automated trains - and indeed trains on the Victoria Line have always been automated. However, the rolling stock has been built on the assumption that there will be someone in the cab to press the start button etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is a simple matter to adapt these trains so that this operation can be performed remotely from a control centre. Perhaps what they are talking about is that future new rolling stock will be built so that it is like the current DLR trains, whereby the door closing and opening can be done from anywhere along the train. However, all DLR trains can be driven manually if required so this feature would have to be incorporated into tube rolling stock. Yes, that's pretty much what it says. I think the operator will still be in charge of closing the doors, but won't normally sit in the cab (in fact, future trains may not have a cab as such). There would be control stations along the train, just as in the DLR, so the operator can move along the train, closing the doors from any of the several/many control points (obviously a key will be needed). This isn't all that different to the old guard's positions that used to be located in passenger saloons. No doubt, manual driving will still be possible, just as in the DLR, but this will probably be only used in emergencies, and at restricted speed. Existing (modern) rolling stock would be modified to work the same way, with door closing buttons fitted in, say, one or two doors on each side of each car, so the operator could be stationed in any car of the train (and in emergencies, this could also be done remotely, say by a dispatcher on the platform). This work would presumably be carried out as part of a mid-life heavy overhaul of the 1995/6 stocks (I assume the 1992 stock would probably be replaced by the new Picc/Bakerloo stock build rather than modified). I assume that the new Victoria line stock has been built this requirement in mind. Obviously what Bob Crow doesn't like is that this de-skills the train drivers, thus reducing their negotiating power. Many more staff could be provided with the necessary training, so drivers wouldn't achieve much by striking. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
In message
, at 06:10:54 on Mon, 24 Oct 2011, David F remarked: I don't mean this facetiously, but what skills does a train driver need? I was always under the impression that they just pressed "go" and the train went to the next station, where they pressed the door open/close button a couple of times. Is there skill to driving a train? Or, is it more a case of being equipped and qualified to deal with emergencies? It depends on the line. Many of them still need drivers who decide what speed to go, when to pass signals, and where to stop. Ironically (unless it's been automated now) the "where to stop" seems to be most crucial at stations like on the Jubilee with PEDs. -- Roland Perry |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"David F" wrote in message
On Oct 24, 1:14 pm, "Recliner" wrote: Obviously what Bob Crow doesn't like is that this de-skills the train drivers I don't mean this facetiously, but what skills does a train driver need? I was always under the impression that they just pressed "go" and the train went to the next station, where they pressed the door open/close button a couple of times. Actually, I think they only have to close the doors; they open themselves when the train has arrived at the next platform. Is there skill to driving a train? Or, is it more a case of being equipped and qualified to deal with emergencies? Remember that most LU lines still have manually driven trains, so they probably do need genuine skills and route knowledge. I gather the training takes several months, so it's not trivial, but hardly comparable to the training and experience required by an airline pilot (who starts on less money than a Tube driver). As they do need to have line knowledge, you can't just take a driver from one line to another without additional training; I don't know how much of this would be needed with fully automatic trains. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"David F" wrote in message
On Oct 24, 2:54 pm, "Recliner" wrote: "David F" wrote in message Remember that most LU lines still have manually driven trains, so they probably do need genuine skills and route knowledge. I gather the training takes several months, so it's not trivial, but hardly comparable to the training and experience required by an airline pilot (who starts on less money than a Tube driver). As they do need to have line knowledge, you can't just take a driver from one line to another without additional training; I don't know how much of this would be needed with fully automatic trains. I've always thought that a bus driver has a harder job than a train driver. Learning the 'route' has to be harder. I agree. They have to manoeuvre through traffic without any sort of automation, remember the route and which stops apply, take the fares, watch out for unruly pax, etc -- much more than a Tube driver. And they earn much less. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"Recliner" wrote in message
... Yes, that's pretty much what it says. I think the operator will still be in charge of closing the doors, but won't normally sit in the cab (in fact, future trains may not have a cab as such). OTOH all the trains currently being introduced check the doors by using a bank of CCTV monitors in the cab, with the pictures provided by fixed cameras all the way down the platform. They aren't likely to replicate that feature at a number of positions all the way down the train, so even with full ATO, I expect the proposed DLR style 'door closer' is still going to sit in the cab. IIRC the DLR operators often use the front seat and observe the platform mirrors when the platforms are at their most crowded anyway... Paul S |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"Paul Scott" wrote in message
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Yes, that's pretty much what it says. I think the operator will still be in charge of closing the doors, but won't normally sit in the cab (in fact, future trains may not have a cab as such). OTOH all the trains currently being introduced check the doors by using a bank of CCTV monitors in the cab, with the pictures provided by fixed cameras all the way down the platform. They aren't likely to replicate that feature at a number of positions all the way down the train, so even with full ATO, I expect the proposed DLR style 'door closer' is still going to sit in the cab. Yes, I wondered about that. Of course, from a centre position, the operator could probably see all the doors anyway on a straight platform. So perhaps the controls would, at most, be placed at a couple of positions down the train, as well as at the cab end (where there would obviously be additional controls locked away in a cabinet). |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 06:10:54 -0700, David F wrote:
Is there skill to driving a train? Or, is it more a case of being equipped and qualified to deal with emergencies? Will these automated trains be able to run non-stop at maximum line speeds when a failed unbraked rail grinder being recovered wrong-line breaks away from the towing train on a rising gradient? Having said that, most of the accidents that have happened on the rail network in recent years seem to have been down to human error, and I'm beginning to conclude that removing humans from the loop could, for example, eliminate spads completely. The problem is to code the control systems for all eventualities. Rgds Denis McMahon |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On 24 Oct 2011 15:58:00 GMT
Denis McMahon wrote: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 06:10:54 -0700, David F wrote: Is there skill to driving a train? Or, is it more a case of being equipped and qualified to deal with emergencies? Will these automated trains be able to run non-stop at maximum line speeds when a failed unbraked rail grinder being recovered wrong-line breaks away from the towing train on a rising gradient? A rail grinder wouldn't be allowed on an automated line while its running in automatic mode. B2003 |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
In message , at
15:58:00 on Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Denis McMahon remarked: Will these automated trains be able to run non-stop at maximum line speeds when a failed unbraked rail grinder being recovered wrong-line breaks away from the towing train on a rising gradient? Maybe that depends on whether the unbraked rail grinder is also being automatically driven? -- Roland Perry |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On 24/10/2011 18:01, Paul Corfield wrote:
I'm not sure how Hong Kong MTR is proceeding but the new South Island line will probably be fully automatic given it is physically separate from other MTR lines. I'd expect the MTR will make the move to full automation at some point when control system and rolling stock renewal permit it. "CNR Changchun has announced a HK$1·4bn contract to supply driverless metro trains for Hong Kong MTR's future West Island and South Island lines", according to http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...ss-trains.html -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Oct 24, 6:01*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 01:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Just came across this on BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. *"Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. There are other examples of driverless automated metros. The North East line and recently completed Circle line in Singapore are fully automated and many trains run without any staff on board. *The Singapore MRT is not exactly a backwater system and carries high volumes. *I would expect the next MRT line - the Downtown Line - will also be fully automated and it will have a high level of patronage given its route. The stations are designed with platform edge doors to provide full segregation from the track. *On the older MRT lines half height platform edge gates are being fitted at open air stations while underground stations have platform edge doors. I'm not sure how Hong Kong MTR is proceeding but the new South Island line will probably be fully automatic given it is physically separate from other MTR lines. *I'd expect the MTR will make the move to full automation at some point when control system and rolling stock renewal permit it. *Underground stations have had PEDs retrofitted while the few open air stations on the older lines don't yet have doors or gates at the platform edge. Newer lines have had PEDs from opening. I suspect there may also be other fully automated lines in Asia but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about those systems. -- Paul C I didn't realise the Singapore system was automated. I was there last year and used the MRT quite a bit. However, is it not much easier to build an automated system from scratch rather than convert an existing system? Think of the testing that would be involved, not to mention the considerable cost of converting existing infrastructure. I would suspect that lines, or sections of lines, will be considered for conversion to ATO as their track and rolling stock comes up for renewal. Would you not have to do certain lines as a group as well? It would be difficult to imagine an automated Circle Line and a non automated District Line running side by side. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
Paul wrote on 24 October 2011 19:11:21 ...
On Oct 24, 6:01 pm, Paul wrote: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 01:19:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Just came across this on BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. "Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. There are other examples of driverless automated metros. The North East line and recently completed Circle line in Singapore are fully automated and many trains run without any staff on board. The Singapore MRT is not exactly a backwater system and carries high volumes. I would expect the next MRT line - the Downtown Line - will also be fully automated and it will have a high level of patronage given its route. The stations are designed with platform edge doors to provide full segregation from the track. On the older MRT lines half height platform edge gates are being fitted at open air stations while underground stations have platform edge doors. I'm not sure how Hong Kong MTR is proceeding but the new South Island line will probably be fully automatic given it is physically separate from other MTR lines. I'd expect the MTR will make the move to full automation at some point when control system and rolling stock renewal permit it. Underground stations have had PEDs retrofitted while the few open air stations on the older lines don't yet have doors or gates at the platform edge. Newer lines have had PEDs from opening. I suspect there may also be other fully automated lines in Asia but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about those systems. -- Paul C I didn't realise the Singapore system was automated. I was there last year and used the MRT quite a bit. However, is it not much easier to build an automated system from scratch rather than convert an existing system? Yes, but converting an existing system is certainly not impossible. The RATP in Paris are doing just that with Métro line 1 at present, having installed platform-edge doors at all stations. Currently it works with ATO like the Central/Victoria/Jubilee lines in London. Note that Paris retrofitted ATO to most lines starting in the 1970s. Some of the converted 1959-vintage stock is still running. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On 24/10/2011 19:11, Paul wrote:
It would be difficult to imagine an automated Circle Line and a non automated District Line running side by side. Nuremberg has automatic and conventionally-driven trains sharing tracks for part of their route. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 01:19:15AM -0700, Paul wrote:
Ticket office closures, reductions in hours and job losses are more likely though (I would have thought) However given TfL's recent experience with the unions, this is more likely to happen gradually over a number of years rather than in one fell swoop. Or perhaps it's better to just get all Crowism out of the way in one go. And it's gonna suck for people wanting to sort out Oystery problems. -- David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice If I could read only one thing it would be the future, in the entrails of the ******* denying me access to anything else. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:27:50 +0100
David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 01:19:15AM -0700, Paul wrote: Ticket office closures, reductions in hours and job losses are more likely though (I would have thought) However given TfL's recent experience with the unions, this is more likely to happen gradually over a number of years rather than in one fell swoop. Or perhaps it's better to just get all Crowism out of the way in one go. I wonder if Bob Crow realises that ultimately he's going to be responsible not only for the underground being a more intrusive system (thanks, but I don't want to give LU my bank details just for occasional PAYG use) but also for the loss of a lot of his members jobs in the long run. B2003 |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On 24/10/2011 16:14, Paul Scott wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Yes, that's pretty much what it says. I think the operator will still be in charge of closing the doors, but won't normally sit in the cab (in fact, future trains may not have a cab as such). OTOH all the trains currently being introduced check the doors by using a bank of CCTV monitors in the cab, with the pictures provided by fixed cameras all the way down the platform. They aren't likely to replicate that feature at a number of positions all the way down the train, so even with full ATO, I expect the proposed DLR style 'door closer' is still going to sit in the cab. IIRC the DLR operators often use the front seat and observe the platform mirrors when the platforms are at their most crowded anyway... Paul S DLR operators also have to drive trains on occasion, in order to stay in practice. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:01:26 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote: On 24/10/2011 19:11, Paul wrote: It would be difficult to imagine an automated Circle Line and a non automated District Line running side by side. Nuremberg has automatic and conventionally-driven trains sharing tracks for part of their route. A little easier for them given the lack of platform-edge doors I suppose - I find that a bit odd. As ATO and ATP are usually separate systems these days (so trains can be driven manually at full speed) it should be possible here if the "manual" train has the right ATP. I wonder how we got, or rather kept, the situation where different ex-infracos are installing different systems. Richard. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:17:45 +0100, "Richard J."
wrote: Yes, but converting an existing system is certainly not impossible. The RATP in Paris are doing just that with Métro line 1 at present, having installed platform-edge doors at all stations. Currently it works with ATO like the Central/Victoria/Jubilee lines in London. Note that Paris retrofitted ATO to most lines starting in the 1970s. Some of the converted 1959-vintage stock is still running. Unfortunately! I suppose they are the most "Paris" of all the stock. It seems odd that the prototype automation in the 50s relied on photo-electric cells and bits of metal screwed to the track. I think Barcelona's trials had similar technology. They must both be on their 3rd generation of ATO now at least. Perhaps LT benefited from waiting a few years to invent something more flexible. (Another) Richard. |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
Richard wrote on 26 October 2011 20:11:56 ...
On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:17:45 +0100, "Richard J." wrote: Yes, but converting an existing system is certainly not impossible. The RATP in Paris are doing just that with Métro line 1 at present, having installed platform-edge doors at all stations. Currently it works with ATO like the Central/Victoria/Jubilee lines in London. Note that Paris retrofitted ATO to most lines starting in the 1970s. Some of the converted 1959-vintage stock is still running. Unfortunately! I suppose they are the most "Paris" of all the stock. Indeed, and the sheer exuberance of the old rubber-tyred stock on, say, line 11 is still exciting in a way that only the 92 stock on the Central Line gets close to. It seems odd that the prototype automation in the 50s relied on photo-electric cells and bits of metal screwed to the track. I think Barcelona's trials had similar technology. They must both be on their 3rd generation of ATO now at least. Perhaps LT benefited from waiting a few years to invent something more flexible. Barcelona was the first ATO in full public service (1963) according to Wikipedia. London and Paris developed ATO at about the same time, but the pity is that London DIDN'T benefit from it except for the Victoria line for 30 years, whereas Paris rolled out the system to 12 lines by 1979. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Tube Plan To Axe 1,500 Jobs And Close All But 30 Ticket Offices
"Paul" wrote in message ... On Oct 24, 6:01 pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 01:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Just came across this on BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882 The only "fully remote" metro I have used is the VAL system in Lille, and the trains there are far too small to be able to cope with the crowds in London. "Fully remote" operation would require platform edge doors at every station, and I would be very surprised if that could be achieved in 9 years, given current budget constraints. There are other examples of driverless automated metros. The North East line and recently completed Circle line in Singapore are fully automated and many trains run without any staff on board. The Singapore MRT is not exactly a backwater system and carries high volumes. I would expect the next MRT line - the Downtown Line - will also be fully automated and it will have a high level of patronage given its route. The stations are designed with platform edge doors to provide full segregation from the track. On the older MRT lines half height platform edge gates are being fitted at open air stations while underground stations have platform edge doors. I'm not sure how Hong Kong MTR is proceeding but the new South Island line will probably be fully automatic given it is physically separate from other MTR lines. I'd expect the MTR will make the move to full automation at some point when control system and rolling stock renewal permit it. Underground stations have had PEDs retrofitted while the few open air stations on the older lines don't yet have doors or gates at the platform edge. Newer lines have had PEDs from opening. I suspect there may also be other fully automated lines in Asia but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about those systems. -- Paul C I didn't realise the Singapore system was automated. I was there last year and used the MRT quite a bit. However, is it not much easier to build an automated system from scratch rather than convert an existing system? Think of the testing that would be involved, not to mention the considerable cost of converting existing infrastructure. -------------------------------------------------------------------- They did this in Nuremberg when they added a new spur to the cross city line. The "testing involved" caused an overrun of three years on a two year long project. tim |
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