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Old October 9th 14, 11:32 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Improving public transport access to London's airports

London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:- http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list


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Old October 9th 14, 07:17 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Improving public transport access to London's airports

On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious)
conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says:

"London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be
extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to
and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport
Parkway and Stansted Airport stations"

I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use their
Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if they can
find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the airport they
can buy a through ticket.

The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail
tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who have
bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a higher fare
because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others have to pay the
extra fare, currently £1-60.



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Old October 10th 14, 12:58 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Improving public transport access to London's airports

wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface
access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

Thanks for coming and posting that

That covers most of the comments I might have made. In particular, if the
balance shifts towards expansion of Gatwick then thoughts need to be made in
terms of interconnecting Gatwick and Heathrow in a better way than the
National Express bus crawling along the M25. Electrifying the North Downs
line plus Airtrack seem sensible ideas, though there's a question about
whether airside transfer is going to be a necessity of running two hub
airports: a long of transfer passengers won't have visas for the UK.

Another point is about access from north of Stansted - that's still a
problem for access to London airports, just not from London. The train
service, consisting of Cross Country from Birmingham, is essentially run to
suit Birmingham not airport passengers: the first arrival on Sundays is
1444, and doesn't run sufficiently early in the morning or late at night to
match the kind of flights that operate out of Stansted.

Also ticket machines need some serious work to rationalise the user
interface for people who are unfamiliar with UK ticketing or restrictions.
All they know is 'London', and are confused by the options for Super
Off-Peak TOC-only Travelcards and all the permutations.

It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for
people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that
way).

Theo
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Old October 10th 14, 09:33 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Improving public transport access to London's airports

In message , at 19:17:53 on Thu, 9 Oct
2014, Clive Page remarked:
On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface
access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious)
conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says:

"London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be
extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to
and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport
Parkway and Stansted Airport stations"


I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports
about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of
contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market
who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).

I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use
their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if
they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.


There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).

The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail
tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who have
bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a higher
fare because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others have to
pay the extra fare, currently £1-60.


In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?

Which if those fares would Oyster/CPC charge if you made only a single
journey?
--
Roland Perry
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Old October 10th 14, 09:40 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 00:58:57 on Fri,
10 Oct 2014, Theo Markettos
remarked:
It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for
people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that
way).


I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is-
contactless#outside

But there may well still be a blind spot for those prepay cards sold at
American airports to tourists worried about C&P in the UK. Maybe that's
the subset that they are talking about?

Although the achilles heel for all families/groups travelling is that
you need one card per person.
--
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Old October 10th 14, 10:20 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Improving public transport access to London's airports


On 10/10/2014 09:40, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 00:58:57 on Fri,
10 Oct 2014, Theo Markettos
remarked:
It also should be remembered that contactless payment is not an option for
people with non-UK cards (and, for credit control reasons, may continue that
way).


I thought they'd gone a long way to fixing that.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-paym...tless/what-is-
contactless#outside

But there may well still be a blind spot for those prepay cards sold at
American airports to tourists worried about C&P in the UK. Maybe that's
the subset that they are talking about?


I think it's more than that - there are some non-UK cards that won't
work for various reasons.

Re pre-paid cards - I've reported this before on here, but my Orange
Cash pre-paid card (the only prepaid card on the UK market I've come
across that has contactless) didn't work when I tested it for CPC
transactions on London buses. I haven't tested it since the 16 Sept full
rollout of CPC on London transport (because stupidly it's in the pocket
of a jacket that's hanging on a hook many miles away!), but I will as
soon as I can. I don't expect it will work though.


Although the achilles heel for all families/groups travelling is that
you need one card per person.


Yep. For children visiting London, the child Off-peak Day Travelcard
(zones 1-6) at £3.60 is a decent option - though it's hardly obvious
looking at the TfL website.

It is possible to get a 5-10 or 11-15 'Zip' Oyster Photocard if you're
visiting London, but you need to apply online and then pick it up, with
proof of age, from one of the five TfL Travel Information Centres.

(5-10 year olds won't need one if travelling accompanied by an adult on
the Tube/DLR/LO as they go free, ditto for London buses but no need for
an accompanying adult.)
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Old October 10th 14, 10:45 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 10/10/2014 09:33, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 19:17:53 on Thu, 9 Oct
2014, Clive Page remarked:
On 09/10/2014 11:32, wrote:
London TravelWatch published yesterday a report on improving surface
access to London's airports. It can be found at:-
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/view?id=497&x[0]=news/list

That's an interesting report, with fairly sensible (if fairly obvious)
conclusions. But one item on p6 stuck me as a bit odd, it says:

"London’s Oystercard/contactless payments ticketing system should be
extended to cover journeys on Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect to
and from Heathrow Airport, and on journeys to and from Luton Airport
Parkway and Stansted Airport stations"


I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports
about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of
contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market
who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).


Acceptance would presumably be Oyster + contactless (in London they go
hand in hand now).

What might be useful is a 'check your contactless card works on public
transport in London' type card scanner at certain places where there are
lots of foreign tourists.


I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use
their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if
they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.


There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).


Agreed the one in baggage reclaim is pretty obvious.


The report also says on p27 that the bus is free to those holding rail
tickets - this is very misleading, as it only applies to those who
have bought a rail ticket to/from the *airport*, i.e. which has a
higher fare because it includes the shuttle bus element. All others
have to pay the extra fare, currently £1-60.


In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?


Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the
Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak
Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day
Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00.

However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the
exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on
*weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12,
as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single
available for journeys starting from London.

(My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to be
available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of it by
buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return portion.)


Which if those fares would Oyster/CPC charge if you made only a single
journey?

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Old October 10th 14, 11:28 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 10:45:54 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?


Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport - the
Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the Off-peak
Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super Off-peak Day
Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is £12.00.


Things must have changed in the most recent fares manual (I was working
from the Avantix that expired last month, which shows an Anytime Day
Single at £26)

However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the
exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on
*weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at £12,
as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day Single
available for journeys starting from London.


There never used to be a Super Off-peak Day Single at all. But it's
available from London too:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...o=1072&tkt=CBB

(My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to
be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of
it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return
portion.)


When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced
to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London,
but now there's an outward flow as well.
--
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Old October 10th 14, 11:40 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 2014-10-10 08:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry said:

I've seen similar (or were they an earlier version of the same) reports
about extending Oyster to those airports. Maybe the roll-out of
contactless payments will trump that, especially for the tourist market
who are unlikely to have Oysters (on arrival at Luton, anyway).


Indeed. While Oyster was definitely a worthwhile product of its time,
I suspect it has a very limited future lifespan - 5 to 10 years maybe -
as banking products replace it.

I would have thought that covering journeys to/from Luton Airport (not
merely Airport Parkway) would be the think to aim for. Since the
shuttle bus is no longer free, without this arriving passengers will
have to find cash to pay for the bus, and only then could they use
their Oyster cards for the rail part of the journey. At present if
they can find the (well-hidden) places to buy rail tickets in the
airport they can buy a through ticket.


There's a prominent machine in baggage reclaim. I agree that there
should be better advertised ones landside (eg at the bus station).


There is a very obvious ticket machine outside right at the bus stop
for the shuttle bus, and the conductor[1] has a ticket machine as well.

[1] Why on earth does it have a conductor when the layovers at each end
are (deliberately) quite long, so there is plenty of time for the
driver to sell tickets? As ISTR you aren't penalised for not buying a
through ticket - the add-on is the same as the bus fare - there is no
need for through rail tickets to be sold on the bus itself.

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?


For what, the bus? brfares.com doesn't list a CDR, just SDS, SDR and
SOR (the latter two bizarrely costing the same, so why the middle one
exists I have no idea).

Neil
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Old October 10th 14, 11:56 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 10/10/2014 11:28, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:45:54 on Fri, 10 Oct
2014, Mizter T remarked:

In the absence of a Cheap Day Single, I wonder how many tourists
arriving buy the much more expensive Open Single, rather than a Cheap
Day Return and throw the other half away?


Sorry, that's not quite right - for journeys *from* Luton Airport -
the Anytime Day Single from Luton Airport to London is £15.50, the
Off-peak Day Return is £16.50. Similarly, at weekends the Super
Off-peak Day Single is £10.40, whilst the Super Off-peak Day Return is
£12.00.


Things must have changed in the most recent fares manual (I was working
from the Avantix that expired last month, which shows an Anytime Day
Single at £26)


No, it was never that expensive.


However for journeys *to* Luton Airport from London, *on weekdays* the
exact same applies - the Anytime Day Single is cheapest - however on
*weekends* the cheapest option is the Super Off-peak Day Return at
£12, as (for reasons unknown) they don't make the Super Off-peak Day
Single available for journeys starting from London.


There never used to be a Super Off-peak Day Single at all. But it's
available from London too:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?o...o=1072&tkt=CBB


That's only to Luton Airport Parkway, but yes you're quite right there
are Super Off-peak Singles *from London* to Luton Airport too - for some
reason I missed that earlier:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=3667&grpo=1072&tkt=CBB
&
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STP&dest=3667&grpo=4452&tkt=CBB




(My recollection is that the Super Off-peak Day Return didn't used to
be available from the London end, so you could only take advantage of
it by buying one to start at Luton Airport and just using the return
portion.)


When the weekend-only Super Off Peak Day Returns [CBA] were introduced
to where I live on what's now Great Northern they were only into London,
but now there's an outward flow as well.


Yes, they must have been introduced not so long ago. Annoying that they
didn't exist in the first place.


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