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Old December 21st 14, 09:49 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default 5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction

I read in a magazine that Overground trains on the Euston-Watford service
won't be able to be extended to 5 cars until power supply upgrades have
taken place. I don't understand why power supply upgrades are is needed.
This route used to be served by 7 car Bakerloo Line trains.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

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Old December 22nd 14, 02:10 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default 5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction

In article , d
() wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:14:01 -0600
wrote:
In article


-september.

org,
(Recliner) wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
On 21/12/2014 21:49,
wrote:
I read in a magazine that Overground trains on the Euston-Watford
service won't be able to be extended to 5 cars until power supply
upgrades have taken place. I don't understand why power supply
upgrades are is needed. This route used to be served by 7 car
Bakerloo Line trains.

Guessing but perhaps "used to" are the operative words in that
sentence, i.e. the power supply kit / arrangements on the line have
changed since 1982.

And maybe 5-car 378s, with modern traction equipment, need more power
than old tube trains (1972 stock, presumably)?


1938 stock actually. I guessed it's the same as the Southern. Massive
power supply upgrades were needed for the switch from camshaft-controlled
stock to power electronics.


You have to wonder why it was necessary if the claims about
electronic control being more efficient are true. Surely that
couldn't have been marketing fluff
could it?


I now recall reading about it at the time. The characteristics are different
and break old supplies. The efficiency mainly comes from regeneration of
course.

I think my question was really because I didn't realise the new 5th cars
were powered.

--
Colin Rosenstiel
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Old December 22nd 14, 02:10 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default 5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:49:04 -0600,

wrote:

I read in a magazine that Overground trains on the Euston-Watford service
won't be able to be extended to 5 cars until power supply upgrades have
taken place. I don't understand why power supply upgrades are is needed.
This route used to be served by 7 car Bakerloo Line trains.


The line is basically full of old restrictive "make do and mend"
signalling and traction current. It's no shock that putting bigger
trains on to the route might be enough to tip things over. The
traction supply has been strengthened or replaced on all the LU routes
that are getting major upgrades and new rolling stock.

I think the TfL game plan is simply to put new 4 car trains on the
route. These have been added to the GOBLIN / West Anglia order. The 5
car trains displaced will be diverted to strengthen other Overground
routes. Clearly those trains won't turn up until 2017.

As reported elsewhere there are also issues with the traction current
supply nearer to Watford where the Met extension would run over NR
tracks. Costs have gone up because of the need to do something to the
traction current supply. There is little detail in public at the
moment but I'd guess the parsimony and cut backs of the 80s are now
having an impact at far, far greater cost.


So true! I've been watching the Borders Railway videos and can't stop
thinking how much they would have saved by not closing the line in the first
place.

--
Colin Rosenstiel
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Old December 22nd 14, 03:03 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default 5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction

wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:14:01 -0600
wrote:
In article


-september.
,
(Recliner) wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
On 21/12/2014 21:49,
wrote:
I read in a magazine that Overground trains on the Euston-Watford
service won't be able to be extended to 5 cars until power supply
upgrades have taken place. I don't understand why power supply
upgrades are is needed. This route used to be served by 7 car
Bakerloo Line trains.

Guessing but perhaps "used to" are the operative words in that
sentence, i.e. the power supply kit / arrangements on the line have
changed since 1982.

And maybe 5-car 378s, with modern traction equipment, need more power
than old tube trains (1972 stock, presumably)?

1938 stock actually. I guessed it's the same as the Southern. Massive
power supply upgrades were needed for the switch from camshaft-controlled
stock to power electronics.


You have to wonder why it was necessary if the claims about
electronic control being more efficient are true. Surely that
couldn't have been marketing fluff
could it?


I now recall reading about it at the time. The characteristics are different
and break old supplies. The efficiency mainly comes from regeneration of
course.

I think my question was really because I didn't realise the new 5th cars
were powered.


I think the new traction packages draw a much heavier current during the
initial acceleration phase. It was one of the urgent projects the SRA had
to deal with when the new 'lardbutt' Siemens Desiro trains were introduced
by SWT. I seem to remember Roger Ford writing about in MR at the time. The
old traction supplies might also need beefing up to cope with regeneration
as well.
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Old December 22nd 14, 03:13 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,484
Default 5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction

On 22.12.14 15:03, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:14:01 -0600
wrote:
In article

-september.
,
(Recliner) wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
On 21/12/2014 21:49,
wrote:
I read in a magazine that Overground trains on the Euston-Watford
service won't be able to be extended to 5 cars until power supply
upgrades have taken place. I don't understand why power supply
upgrades are is needed. This route used to be served by 7 car
Bakerloo Line trains.

Guessing but perhaps "used to" are the operative words in that
sentence, i.e. the power supply kit / arrangements on the line have
changed since 1982.

And maybe 5-car 378s, with modern traction equipment, need more power
than old tube trains (1972 stock, presumably)?

1938 stock actually. I guessed it's the same as the Southern. Massive
power supply upgrades were needed for the switch from camshaft-controlled
stock to power electronics.

You have to wonder why it was necessary if the claims about
electronic control being more efficient are true. Surely that
couldn't have been marketing fluff
could it?


I now recall reading about it at the time. The characteristics are different
and break old supplies. The efficiency mainly comes from regeneration of
course.

I think my question was really because I didn't realise the new 5th cars
were powered.


I think the new traction packages draw a much heavier current during the
initial acceleration phase. It was one of the urgent projects the SRA had
to deal with when the new 'lardbutt' Siemens Desiro trains were introduced
by SWT. I seem to remember Roger Ford writing about in MR at the time. The
old traction supplies might also need beefing up to cope with regeneration
as well.

Forgive me, please, if I asked this question earlier, but what's the
deal at this point with re-extending the Bakerloo Line out to Watford
Junction? Or is that dead with the emphasis now on extending further
south from Elephant & Castle?

IIRC, one of the reasons that LUL service has not developed much south
of the river is because that part of town is largely on sand.
  #10   Report Post  
Old December 22nd 14, 04:03 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 2,990
Default 5 car Overground trains to Watford Junction

" wrote:
On 22.12.14 15:03, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:14:01 -0600
wrote:
In article

-september.
,
(Recliner) wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
On 21/12/2014 21:49,
wrote:
I read in a magazine that Overground trains on the Euston-Watford
service won't be able to be extended to 5 cars until power supply
upgrades have taken place. I don't understand why power supply
upgrades are is needed. This route used to be served by 7 car
Bakerloo Line trains.

Guessing but perhaps "used to" are the operative words in that
sentence, i.e. the power supply kit / arrangements on the line have
changed since 1982.

And maybe 5-car 378s, with modern traction equipment, need more power
than old tube trains (1972 stock, presumably)?

1938 stock actually. I guessed it's the same as the Southern. Massive
power supply upgrades were needed for the switch from camshaft-controlled
stock to power electronics.

You have to wonder why it was necessary if the claims about
electronic control being more efficient are true. Surely that
couldn't have been marketing fluff
could it?

I now recall reading about it at the time. The characteristics are different
and break old supplies. The efficiency mainly comes from regeneration of
course.

I think my question was really because I didn't realise the new 5th cars
were powered.


I think the new traction packages draw a much heavier current during the
initial acceleration phase. It was one of the urgent projects the SRA had
to deal with when the new 'lardbutt' Siemens Desiro trains were introduced
by SWT. I seem to remember Roger Ford writing about in MR at the time. The
old traction supplies might also need beefing up to cope with regeneration
as well.

Forgive me, please, if I asked this question earlier, but what's the deal
at this point with re-extending the Bakerloo Line out to Watford
Junction? Or is that dead with the emphasis now on extending further
south from Elephant & Castle?


That's been dead for years, long before the southern extension of the
Bakerloo became an active proposal. And there's no chance if it now, with
the Met also going to Watford Junction.

IIRC, one of the reasons that LUL service has not developed much south of
the river is because that part of town is largely on sand.


That was part of the original reason a century or more ago, but it's not
much of an issue with modern tunnelling methods. Ditto with building larger
diameter tunnels, so we won't see any all-new small gauge tube lines.


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