"Peter Beale" wrote in message
o.uk...
In article ,
(Stephen Furley) wrote:

World Trade Center, slightly to the West of Hodson Terminal. We all
know what happened to that.

Reopened November 23rd 2003: see
http://www.panynj.gov/path/WTCSeatdropF.pdf

Rather a new, temporary, station opened on the site of the original.

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

There is still talk of reusing the Hudson Terminal site for the new
permanent World Trade Center station, because the demolished WTC station
(and the temporary station) are partly in the footprint which the WTC
relatives want kept sacred.

There was a suggestion at one time of extending Path East of the WTC site,
then turning North to join one of the existing Subway lines, I think it may
have been the 6, towards Lexington Avenue, joining it somewhere near the old
dis-used City Hall station on the loop where the 6 turns now, but I'm not
sure about this. There was a web-site about it. Somebody reported that
Path is incompatible with the Subway, but, espically since Path is to get
new rolling stock soon, I would have thought the work involved to make it
compatible would be relatively minor, in terms of the total reconstruction
of the WTC site. Whether there would be any other technical problems, and
whether there would be enough demand for such a service, I have no idea. Was
any mention made of this.

In article , (Stephen Furley) wrote:

Reopened November 23rd 2003: see
http://www.panynj.gov/path/WTCSeatdropF.pdf

Rather a new, temporary, station opened on the site of the original.

Ah, yes - I see that from the leaflet now. Going there next month, and last time
was in April 2001 - we were staying in Goshen NY, came down to "do" NYC on
the Metro North from Campbell Hall to Hoboken, then PATH to WTC, arriving about
the time of day that the towers were to be hit. Came home to us very much when
we heard the news on Sept. 11th (incidentally, our wedding anniversary).

--
Peter Beale

Even without signage, those who rode the Tubes could feel the
"missing" tunnels. One characteristic of the Tubes is the extremely
sharp narrow radius turns which cause lurching and noise.

The most noticeable are the junctions in Jersey City [from Exchange
Place and Journal Square to Pavonia Newport and from Hoboken and
Pavonia Newport to Christopher Street] but even in Manhattan, such as
leaving 9th Street bound northwards at the aborted tunnel to the East
Side. On the section from the uptown tunnel to Hoboken you pass
through three turns which sometimes seem to be right angled!

There's more info on the Tubes / PATH at my Hudson Tubes website at
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubes/gatewaytubepage.html .
========================

"Stephen Furley" wrote in message ...
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...

Are you sure that's the whole line? Various underwater tunnels in the
New York area are the "name Tubes", so the "Hudson Tubes" would
logically be the WTC branch with some other name for the 33rd Street
branch.
I think so; when I was there the World Trade Center line was closed, so I
have only been on the 33rd street one, therefore the tiled signs I have seen
pointing to the 'Hudson Tubes' must have been on that line. I think one is
at 33rd street.

When I was first there, in April 2002, Path seemed to have made every
possible effort to remove all possible effort to remove all evidence of the
WTC line. There was no 'closed for reconstruction' to be seen anywhere.
there are a few cast metal route diagrams which had not been removed or
covered, but I had not seen these. When I heard of the WTC station I
assumed it was served by a branch heading South from somewhere near
Christopher Street, but I could see no sign of a junction there. It was
only when I returned six months later that I discovered that the WTC line
had its own tunnels under the Hudson, and the junctions were clearly
visible, if I had been looking for them in the right place. The Path
station at Exchange place was still there of course, and I think can be seen
from a passing Hudson-Bergen train, but I had not noticed it the first time.

The river to the west, between Newark and Harrison, is the Passaic
River which passes through Paterson up north, flows southwards and
empties into Newark Bay; the next river, inside Jersey City, is the
Hackensack River, also emptying into Newark Bay.

Manhattan Transfer was slightly to the east and slightly to the north
of the present Harrison station. The Pennsylvania originally switched
from steam to electric power there for the trip into Penn Station [New
York] though the North River Tunnnels that were finished around 1912;
until then the Pennsy had its New York terminal in Jersey City at
Exchange Place and used ferries to Manhattan. When the Pennsy
electrified the New York Philadelphia Washington route in the 1930s,
Manhattan Transfer was no longer needed and was demolished. It was at
that same time that the new [present] Newark Penn Station was built.

The Hudson Tubes website at
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubes/gatewaytubepage.html
has a sightseeing tour [#9] which may be helpful for out of town
visitors to the Tubes.
======================
Between Newark and Juornal Square the line crosses two rivers, which of
these is the Passaic, and what is the other. There are massive bridges
crossing both of these rivers, which obviously opened at one time, but I
don't think they do now. Where was Manhattan Transfer, and whos trains
served it?

"bob" wrote in message
om...
Even without signage, those who rode the Tubes could feel the
"missing" tunnels. One characteristic of the Tubes is the extremely
sharp narrow radius turns which cause lurching and noise.

The most noticeable are the junctions in Jersey City [from Exchange
Place and Journal Square to Pavonia Newport and from Hoboken and
Pavonia Newport to Christopher Street] but even in Manhattan, such as
leaving 9th Street bound northwards at the aborted tunnel to the East
Side. On the section from the uptown tunnel to Hoboken you pass
through three turns which sometimes seem to be right angled!

There's more info on the Tubes / PATH at my Hudson Tubes website at
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubes/gatewaytubepage.html .

Yes, the last time I was there, just a year ago, I stood at the front of a
Path train, and looked out of the front window as we went round the curves.

On 09/04/2004 12:26, in article ,
"Stephen Furley" wrote:

That's it. I don't know anything about it. where was it, and when did it
close? Newark Penn seems to have undergone some major reconstruction in the
'30s, judging by the style of the builnings; was the H&M diverted there
then?
Newark Penn was opened in June 1937, and H&M trains operated there from June
20. By 1974 there wasn't any trace of Park Place terminal, although you
could pinpoint it to within a block or so by the orientation of the
swing-bridge when shut.


Between Newark and Juornal Square the line crosses two rivers, which of
these is the Passaic, and what is the other. There are massive bridges
crossing both of these rivers, which obviously opened at one time, but I
don't think they do now. Where was Manhattan Transfer, and whos trains
served it?

The Passaic is at the New York end of Newark Penn; the other river is the
Hackensack, much nearer Jersey City.

Manhattan Transfer was about 1 - 1.5 miles East of the present-day Harrison
stop on PATH. It was served by H&M and Pennsylvania RR trains. If Hudson
tower is still there, alongside PATH, that will give you the exact location
- it used to be tower S, at the East end of Manhattan Transfer.

Manhattan Transfer existed to enable interchange between PRR trains and H&M,
and was also the place where electrics replaced steam for the run into Penn
station in NYC. It opened in 1910, and closed June 20, 1937. Like Dovey
Jct., it had no road access whatever.

I didn't see any large-scale models, but there are two large wood and glass
cases, one in the waiting room, and the orher as you walk down the right
side of the station towards one of the Path entrances, which collect money
for charity. I dropped a few coins in as I walked past, but didn't look
closely. I think they had model railways in them. I'll have a better look
when I'm there.

The large-scale models were high up on the walls, about 30 ft. up.

If you can find a copy of "Rails Under The Mighty Hudson" (Brian J Cudahy,
Stephen Greene Press, 1975) it will answer many questions about H&M/PATH
history.

Bob Watt wrote in message ...


One station which changed name; Pavonia Avenue. Was originally Erie (before
the Erie trains were rerouted to Hoboken). Look carefully at the decoration
on the pillars holding the roof up, and you'll see an 'E' worked into them.

Another, very early name change: Journal Square opened as Summit Avenue.

Michael Wares

Are you sure that's the whole line? Various underwater tunnels in the
New York area are the "name Tubes", so the "Hudson Tubes" would
logically be the WTC branch with some other name for the 33rd Street
branch.

Yes, the entire Hudson and Manhattan Railroad was popularly known as
the Hudson Tubes. In fact, for a brief period after the H&M went
bankrupt, and before the Port Authority's PATH took over, the operator
was "Hudson Rapid Tubes".

I don't hear "Hudson Tubes" much any more; PATH seems to be the commonly
used name now.

Michael Wares

Bob Watt wrote in message ...

If you can find a copy of "Rails Under The Mighty Hudson" (Brian J Cudahy,
Stephen Greene Press, 1975) it will answer many questions about H&M/PATH
history.

There's a new edition out, by Fordham University Press.

I'd also recommend "The Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Revisited" by
Paul Carleton, published by D. Carleton Rail Books.

Michael Wares