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Old December 14th 19, 08:55 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 14/12/2019 20:52, Marland wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 10:12:42 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:18:56 on Sat, 14 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 21:18:51 +0000
"Clive D.W. Feather" wrote:
In article ,
writes
As I said if anyobe had bothered to read - I have relatives living in a
village near Huntingdon directly impacted by this bloody bypass. The amount
of farmland concreted over for it just so some drivers can save 15 mins is
obscene and thats before the extra pollution and noise is taken into
account.

I don't know how much farmland is actually being taken long-term (I do
have the scheme plans, but I have better things to do), but there will
actually be *less* pollution and noise because people won't be sitting
in almost-stationary cars for ages with their engines running.

Ah, the old build more roads to solve congestion and pollution fallacy.

If planned properly, they work fine.


Sure, it all goes to plan for a few years. Then ever more people start to use
the route and in a decade or so you're back where you started except now the
jams have twice as many cars with twice the pollution. The best example of this
in the UK is the M25. No matter how much they widen it it just jams up again
in a few years. It has 6 lanes each way around Heathrow yet they're still often
jammed solid in the rush hour. So what do you do, widen it to 8 lanes, 10?
Where does it stop?

By stopping people breeding or the population increasing by immigration.

We entered a period of what is going to be a generation of political
upheaval partly to deal with the expectations by some that the latter can
be managed in some way that pleases them.
The other can only be done in a civilised society by encouragement .
If people have only two children they are just replacing themselves but
many have more.


Actually the replacement rate is about 2.4 children per couple to allow
for infertility, , infant mortality, gay couples and those who just
don't want children. Currently the average is nearer 1.8 so in the long
term the population of this country is going to shrink fairly rapidly.
The downside is the population is getting older. It's a phenomenon that
is being repeated across the world as people get better educated and the
religious ties are loosened.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.


  #162   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 08:19 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 14/12/2019 21:55, Graeme Wall wrote:

Actually the replacement rate is about 2.4 children per couple to allow
for infertility, , infant mortality, gay couples and those who just
don't want children. Currently the average is nearer 1.8 so in the long
term the population of this country is going to shrink fairly rapidly.
The downside is the population is getting older. It's a phenomenon that
is being repeated across the world as people get better educated and the
religious ties are loosened.


I don't know what you mean by "long term" but the ONS project the
population of the UK continuing to increase through to 2043.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
  #163   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 08:59 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:22:53 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:58:48 on Sat, 14 Dec
2019, remarked:
Sure, it all goes to plan for a few years. Then ever more people start to use
the route and in a decade or so you're back where you started except now the
jams have twice as many cars with twice the pollution. The best example of

this
in the UK is the M25. No matter how much they widen it it just jams up again
in a few years. It has 6 lanes each way around Heathrow yet they're still

often
jammed solid in the rush hour. So what do you do, widen it to 8 lanes, 10?
Where does it stop?


When they plan it better and segregate the long distance and local
traffic. The problem with that bit of the M25 (and I lived *there* 25yrs
ago and saw it first hand) was mixing them up.


And how do you plan to segregate them? Either you allow local traffic onto
the M25 or you close the junctions.

The newest bit of A14 (remember, the road we are discussing) segregates
them, just as the A1(M) north of Huntingdon does, the road which hasn't
shown any sign of jamming up 20yrs later.


I doubt many people use the A1 for long distance travel in the south or midlands
as there are too many roundabouts, too much slowing down and speeding up and
too many selfish truckers doing the tortoise race holding up a quarter mile of
traffic as they pass each other at 0.5mph difference in order to gain 1 minute
that they immediately lose at the next roundabout anyway.

  #164   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 09:25 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 15/12/2019 09:19, Robin wrote:
On 14/12/2019 21:55, Graeme Wall wrote:

Actually the replacement rate is about 2.4 children per couple to
allow for infertility, , infant mortality, gay couples and those who
just don't want children. Currently the average is nearer 1.8 so in
the long term the population of this country is going to shrink fairly
rapidly. The downside is the population is getting older. It's a
phenomenon that is being repeated across the world as people get
better educated and the religious ties are loosened.


I don't know what you mean by "long term" but the ONS project the
population of the UK continuing to increase through to 2043.



After the middle of the century as the offspring of the baby boomers
start to die out and the influence of effective contraception took hold
from the mid 1960s onward.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Old December 15th 19, 09:44 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 15/12/2019 10:25, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 15/12/2019 09:19, Robin wrote:
On 14/12/2019 21:55, Graeme Wall wrote:

Actually the replacement rate is about 2.4 children per couple to
allow for infertility, , infant mortality, gay couples and those who
just don't want children. Currently the average is nearer 1.8 so in
the long term the population of this country is going to shrink
fairly rapidly. The downside is the population is getting older. It's
a phenomenon that is being repeated across the world as people get
better educated and the religious ties are loosened.


I don't know what you mean by "long term" but the ONS project the
population of the UK continuing to increase through to 2043.



After the middle of the century as the offspring of the baby boomers
start to die out and the influence of effective contraception took hold
from the mid 1960s onward.


Thanks for calibrating "long term".

While you may of course be right I'll merely note that the statisticians
at Eurostat do not agree. They project the UK population continuing to
increase (albeit more slowly) through to 2100.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/po...ta/main-tables

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid


  #166   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 10:24 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 9,982
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

In message , at 09:59:22 on Sun, 15 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:22:53 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:58:48 on Sat, 14 Dec
2019,
remarked:
Sure, it all goes to plan for a few years. Then ever more people start to use
the route and in a decade or so you're back where you started except now the
jams have twice as many cars with twice the pollution. The best example of

this
in the UK is the M25. No matter how much they widen it it just jams up again
in a few years. It has 6 lanes each way around Heathrow yet they're still

often
jammed solid in the rush hour. So what do you do, widen it to 8 lanes, 10?
Where does it stop?


When they plan it better and segregate the long distance and local
traffic. The problem with that bit of the M25 (and I lived *there* 25yrs
ago and saw it first hand) was mixing them up.


And how do you plan to segregate them? Either you allow local traffic onto
the M25 or you close the junctions.


You build a local road in parallel.

The newest bit of A14 (remember, the road we are discussing) segregates
them, just as the A1(M) north of Huntingdon does, the road which hasn't
shown any sign of jamming up 20yrs later.


I doubt many people use the A1 for long distance travel in the south or
midlands as there are too many roundabouts,


Almost none left now.

too much slowing down and speeding up and too many selfish truckers
doing the tortoise race holding up a quarter mile of traffic as they
pass each other at 0.5mph difference in order to gain 1 minute that
they immediately lose at the next roundabout anyway.


There typically isn't a "next roundabout", but I agree that HGV-races
are a pain, and hence why some roads (like the new A14, and the 20yr old
A1(M) in north Cambs) are built with more than 2 lanes.
--
Roland Perry
  #167   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 10:42 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,587
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 15/12/2019 10:44, Robin wrote:
On 15/12/2019 10:25, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 15/12/2019 09:19, Robin wrote:
On 14/12/2019 21:55, Graeme Wall wrote:

Actually the replacement rate is about 2.4 children per couple to
allow for infertility, , infant mortality, gay couples and those who
just don't want children. Currently the average is nearer 1.8 so in
the long term the population of this country is going to shrink
fairly rapidly. The downside is the population is getting older.
It's a phenomenon that is being repeated across the world as people
get better educated and the religious ties are loosened.


I don't know what you mean by "long term" but the ONS project the
population of the UK continuing to increase through to 2043.



After the middle of the century as the offspring of the baby boomers
start to die out and the influence of effective contraception took
hold from the mid 1960s onward.


Thanks for calibrating "long term".

While you may of course be right I'll merely note that the statisticians
at Eurostat do not agree.¬* They project the UK population continuing to
increase (albeit more slowly) through to 2100.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/po...ta/main-tables



A quick look at the fertility table shows the rate in the UK varying
from a low of 1.27 in inner London to a high of 1.97 in outer London for
2017. The general trend is consistently falling across the country over
the 5 year period on the chart.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

  #168   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 10:45 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,587
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 15/12/2019 11:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:59:22 on Sun, 15 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:22:53 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:58:48 on Sat, 14 Dec
2019,
remarked:
Sure, it all goes to plan for a few years. Then ever more people
start to use
the route and in a decade or so you're back where you started except
now the
jams have twice as many cars with twice the pollution. The best
example of
this
in the UK is the M25. No matter how much they widen it it just jams
up again
in a few years. It has 6 lanes each way around Heathrow yet they're
still
often
jammed solid in the rush hour. So what do you do, widen it to 8
lanes, 10?
Where does it stop?

When they plan it better and segregate the long distance and local
traffic. The problem with that bit of the M25 (and I lived *there* 25yrs
ago and saw it first hand) was mixing them up.


And how do you plan to segregate them? Either you allow local traffic
onto
the M25 or you close the junctions.


You build a local road in parallel.


Where? There are already local rads in parallel and they are swamped too.


The newest bit of A14 (remember, the road we are discussing) segregates
them, just as the A1(M) north of Huntingdon does, the road which hasn't
shown any sign of jamming up 20yrs later.


I doubt many people use the A1 for long distance travel in the south
or midlands as there are too many roundabouts,


Almost none left now.

too much slowing down and speeding up and too many selfish truckers
doing the tortoise race holding up a quarter mile of traffic as they
pass each other at 0.5mph difference in order to gain 1 minute that
they immediately lose at the next roundabout anyway.


There typically isn't a "next roundabout", but I agree that HGV-races
are a pain, and hence why some roads (like the new A14, and the 20yr old
A1(M) in north Cambs) are built with more than 2 lanes.


They tried banning HGVs from the outside lane on a hilly section of the
A34 around Didcot. It was routinely ignored and TVP didn't have the
resources or inclination to police it properly.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

  #169   Report Post  
Old December 15th 19, 10:56 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 11:45:31 on Sun, 15 Dec
2019, Graeme Wall remarked:
On 15/12/2019 11:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:59:22 on Sun, 15 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:22:53 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:58:48 on Sat, 14 Dec
2019,
remarked:
Sure, it all goes to plan for a few years. Then ever more people
start to use
the route and in a decade or so you're back where you started
except now the
jams have twice as many cars with twice the pollution. The best
example of
this
in the UK is the M25. No matter how much they widen it it just
jams up again
in a few years. It has 6 lanes each way around Heathrow yet
they're still
often
jammed solid in the rush hour. So what do you do, widen it to 8
lanes, 10?
Where does it stop?

When they plan it better and segregate the long distance and local
traffic. The problem with that bit of the M25 (and I lived *there* 25yrs
ago and saw it first hand) was mixing them up.

And how do you plan to segregate them? Either you allow local
traffic onto
the M25 or you close the junctions.

You build a local road in parallel.


Where? There are already local rads in parallel and they are swamped too.


There are legacy local roads well away from the M25 corridor itself.
None that I'm aware of newly built as M25 local relief roads.

The newest bit of A14 (remember, the road we are discussing)
segregates
them, just as the A1(M) north of Huntingdon does, the road which hasn't
shown any sign of jamming up 20yrs later.

I doubt many people use the A1 for long distance travel in the south
or midlands as there are too many roundabouts,

Almost none left now.

too much slowing down and speeding up and too many selfish truckers
doing the tortoise race holding up a quarter mile of traffic as they
pass each other at 0.5mph difference in order to gain 1 minute that
they immediately lose at the next roundabout anyway.

There typically isn't a "next roundabout", but I agree that
HGV-races are a pain, and hence why some roads (like the new A14, and
the 20yr old A1(M) in north Cambs) are built with more than 2 lanes.


They tried banning HGVs from the outside lane on a hilly section of the
A34 around Didcot.


That's only 2-lane, I think. Or are you saying HGVs are racing also in a
third lane?

It was routinely ignored and TVP didn't have the resources or
inclination to police it properly.


If they can catch and ANPR people speeding in any lane, they can issue
tickets to HGVs in the 'wrong' lane.
--
Roland Perry
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Old December 15th 19, 11:39 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,587
Default Latest Heathrow master plan

On 15/12/2019 11:56, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:45:31 on Sun, 15 Dec
2019, Graeme Wall remarked:
On 15/12/2019 11:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:59:22 on Sun, 15 Dec
2019, remarked:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:22:53 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:58:48 on Sat, 14 Dec
2019,
remarked:
Sure, it all goes to plan for a few years. Then ever more people
start to use
the route and in a decade or so you're back where you started
except¬* now the
jams have twice as many cars with twice the pollution. The best
example of
this
in the UK is the M25. No matter how much they widen it it just
jams¬* up again
in a few years. It has 6 lanes each way around Heathrow yet
they're¬* still
often
jammed solid in the rush hour. So what do you do, widen it to 8
lanes, 10?
Where does it stop?

When they plan it better and segregate the long distance and local
traffic. The problem with that bit of the M25 (and I lived *there*
25yrs
ago and saw it first hand) was mixing them up.

And how do you plan to segregate them? Either you allow local
traffic¬* onto
the M25 or you close the junctions.
¬*You build a local road in parallel.


Where? There are already local rads in parallel and they are swamped too.


There are legacy local roads well away from the M25 corridor itself.
None that I'm aware of newly built as M25 local relief roads.

The newest bit of A14 (remember, the road we are discussing)
segregates
them, just as the A1(M) north of Huntingdon does, the road which
hasn't
shown any sign of jamming up 20yrs later.

I doubt many people use the A1 for long distance travel in the south
or midlands as there are too many roundabouts,
¬*Almost none left now.

too much slowing down and speeding up and too many selfish truckers
doing the tortoise race holding up a quarter mile of traffic as they
pass each other at 0.5mph difference in order to gain 1 minute that
they immediately lose at the next roundabout anyway.
¬*There typically isn't a "next roundabout", but I agree that
HGV-races¬* are a pain, and hence why some roads (like the new A14,
and the 20yr old¬* A1(M) in north Cambs) are built with more than 2
lanes.


They tried banning HGVs from the outside lane on a hilly section of
the A34 around Didcot.


That's only 2-lane, I think. Or are you saying HGVs are racing also in a
third lane?


No 2 lane, it was an attempt to solve the problem on the cheap.


It was routinely ignored and TVP didn't have the resources or
inclination to police it properly.


If they can catch and ANPR people speeding in any lane, they can issue
tickets to HGVs in the 'wrong' lane.


First install your ANPR cameras. It is not an area where too much
speeding can take place because of the hills.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.



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