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Old July 13th 19, 01:11 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further

In message , at
14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams
remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:44:13
on Fri, 12 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.


Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge
the last three and a bit years?


Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer
extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.


You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.


The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and
strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic.

If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.


I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given
your total confusion over roles displayed above.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which
is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.
--
Roland Perry

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Old July 13th 19, 01:49 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 33
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further


"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13
Jul 2019, michael adams remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?


Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.


You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.


The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.


But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.

The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.

If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.

Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?




If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.


I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,


So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?

That should make a good start.

given your total confusion over roles displayed above.


As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ? That's discounting projects such as the
White Sea canal which made extensive use of slave labour.


And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking
vaguer and vaguer all the time.


That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.

Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.


michael adams

....


  #13   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 02:12 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 852
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further



"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams
remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:44:13 on
Fri, 12 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge
the last three and a bit years?


Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer
extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.


You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of
taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any
aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a
bargepole.


The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically.
Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic.

If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves
open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.


I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your
total confusion over roles displayed above.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is
looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.


I'm just looking for the opportunity to travel to Reading for free :-)

tim



  #14   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 02:26 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,625
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further

In message , at
14:49:51 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams
remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings,
despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?

Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far
fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of
London.


You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable
of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such
elected position with a bargepole.


The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and
strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.


But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.

The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.

If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.

Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?


I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors
were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people
supposed to be managing the contractors were doing.

If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay
themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven
opportunists such as yourself.


I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,


So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?


Several. That's my original day-job.

given your total confusion over roles displayed above.


As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ?


False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible
time/budget prediction, and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they
over-run, but you need to know about it a great deal sooner than has
happened on Crossrail.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail,
which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.


That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.


I'm critiquing based on my project management experience.

Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.


The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm
of people who should have been able to see it was running so much later
than claimed.

"A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last
year, just weeks before the railway was supposed to open in December
2018" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766

Now predicted to be 2021 or later.

Some of it is really simple, such as:

"Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet
exist and vital equipment is not in place, five months after the
crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted."

It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed
to run the trains been delivered yet?".
--
Roland Perry
  #15   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 02:38 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further

tim... wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams
remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:44:13 on
Fri, 12 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge
the last three and a bit years?

Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer
extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.


You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of
taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any
aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a
bargepole.


The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically.
Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic.

If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves
open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.


I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your
total confusion over roles displayed above.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is
looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.


I'm just looking for the opportunity to travel to Reading for free :-)


You should get that later this year.



  #16   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 03:11 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Oct 2013
Posts: 65
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:54:37 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 13/07/2019 11:22, tim... wrote:
the fallacy of the sunk costs


That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the
mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions
on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the
options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and
lessons from that work for the likely future costs.


I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience. Costs there have
certainly been but not payable by the public purse but by those
inconvenienced. Roads closed, diversions in place (one road closed
for 9 years we are told - a road that I often used but now have a
significant detour).

Guy Gorton
  #17   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 03:12 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jan 2012
Posts: 33
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further


"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 14:49:51 on Sat, 13
Jul 2019, michael adams remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in
charge
the last three and a bit years?

Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous
responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.

You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.

The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise
he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.


But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.

The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.

If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.

Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?


I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing,
and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the
contractors were doing.


Really ? So its all Khan's fault ?

According to this

" Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors
of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367

So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport
had no role to play in all of this ?

As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now.



If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to
ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself.

I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,


So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?


Several. That's my original day-job.



given your total confusion over roles displayed above.


As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ?


False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction,
and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it
a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking
vaguer and vaguer all the time.


That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.


I'm critiquing based on my project management experience.

Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.


The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who
should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed.

"A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks
before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766

Now predicted to be 2021 or later.

Some of it is really simple, such as:

"Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital
equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have
opened, bosses have admitted."

It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the
trains been delivered yet?".


But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have
been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project
which was in the hands of other contractors.

" five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened,
bosses have admitted."

That doesn't really add anything by way of explanation does it ?

Maybe monitoring those aspects of the project were the DfT's
{neglected) responsibility. Who's to know ? Do you ?


michael adams

....








--
Roland Perry




  #18   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 03:47 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2019
Posts: 123
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further

michael adams wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 14:49:51 on Sat, 13
Jul 2019, michael adams remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in
charge
the last three and a bit years?

Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous
responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.

You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.

The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise
he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.

But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.

The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.

If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.

Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?


I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing,
and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the
contractors were doing.


Really ? So its all Khan's fault ?

According to this

" Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors
of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367

So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport
had no role to play in all of this ?

As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now.


I mentioned it upthread, but Roland magisterially dismissed my comment.

Me: The DfT is certainly involved, too.

Roland: In as subsidiary role. The Mayor's at the top of the pile.


I didn't bother pursuing it, as Roland's in a particularly argumentative
mood today, even by his standards.




If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to
ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself.

I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,

So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?


Several. That's my original day-job.



given your total confusion over roles displayed above.

As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ?


False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction,
and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it
a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking
vaguer and vaguer all the time.

That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.


I'm critiquing based on my project management experience.

Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.


The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who
should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed.

"A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks
before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766

Now predicted to be 2021 or later.

Some of it is really simple, such as:

"Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital
equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have
opened, bosses have admitted."

It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the
trains been delivered yet?".


But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have
been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project
which was in the hands of other contractors.

" five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened,
bosses have admitted."

That doesn't really add anything by way of explanation does it ?

Maybe monitoring those aspects of the project were the DfT's
{neglected) responsibility. Who's to know ? Do you ?


Well, Roland obviously thinks he knows everything there is to know about
Crossrail…


  #20   Report Post  
Old July 13th 19, 06:33 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,453
Default ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further

On 13/07/2019 14:49, michael adams wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13
Jul 2019, michael adams remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...
In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.

Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?

Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.


You are confusing strategic and operational.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.


The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.


But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.

The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.

If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.

Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?



How long has Khan been mayor?

When did Crossrail start?

When were the contractors appointed?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.



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