When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.


More than in recent LO days, or more than in Silverlink days?

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

On 19/07/2019 07:42, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.

The metal is NR, however, correct?

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

On 19/07/2019 20:50, Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On 19/07/2019 07:42, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.

The metal is NR, however, correct?


Yes, all the LO network is (apart from the ELL, which is, I think, still
owned by TfL).


I know that NLL and WLL are NR, but I thought that ELL went back to NR.

Is Gunnersbury to Richmond also NR, BTW?

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:16:26 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.


More than in recent LO days, or more than in Silverlink days?

More than in earlier LO days as well but it depends on the time of
day. Some stations are now totally unstaffed at night with barriers
left open where previously there would have been one person there
until the last train. During the day (it might vary by station) in my
local station there is one person lurking in the not-a-booking office
with another one on each platform although I'm not sure exactly what
functions they are performing.

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:16:26 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.


More than in recent LO days, or more than in Silverlink days?

More than in earlier LO days as well but it depends on the time of
day. Some stations are now totally unstaffed at night with barriers
left open where previously there would have been one person there
until the last train. During the day (it might vary by station) in my
local station there is one person lurking in the not-a-booking office
with another one on each platform although I'm not sure exactly what
functions they are performing.


That sounds like less than LU staffing levels (but much better than in the
benighted Silverlink era) ?

When is an e-ticket not an e-ticket?
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 06:42:19 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:16:26 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:59:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:22:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:59:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 01:11:12 on
Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Charles Ellson remarked:
On the local trains, the train companies are contracted by the
Verkehrsverbund, and most often all revenues go directly to the
Verkehrsverbund rather than to the TOC, so the TOC tend to be less
worried about possibility of abuse.

Our equivalent would be a service such as the London Overground, where
TfL get the fares, but the trains are operated by Arriva.

LO doesn't operate in isolation. Much of it has parallel services and
the fares also get collected by operators other than LU. TfL get a
proportion of the fares not all of them.

Did anyone assert that Verkehrsverbund operated "in isolation"?

I don't know, I was addressing TfL not being the inevitable
recipient/beneficiary of the fares money collected on LO routes.

And you think some of the money goes direct to Arriva?

No. What made you think that?

Whatever you meant by the proportion of fares that TfL didn't get.

Lines/stations with LU/LO services don't inevitably have LU booking
offices

They inevitably have no ticket offices.

Except for the ones that do such as those on the DC line north of
Harrow and Wealdstone which are managed by LO; also others south of
the river such as New Cross, stations on the WLL etc. Kilburn High
Road and South Hampstead (both LO only) are also listed by
nationalrail.co.uk as still having a staffed booking office albeit not
very often.

Well, whatever they are, they're certainly not LU ticket offices.



or no other service provider so the fares in many won't be
received by LU or all allocated to TfL services. Harrow and Wealdstone
station is managed by London Underground but is served by and sells
tickets for LU/LO, London Northwestern and Southern services.

True, but it no longer has a ticket office. It does seem odd that it's
managed by LU, not LO.

The DC line stations also served by LU were all transferred to LU
management. Despite being described as not having ticket offices, many
stations still have the same ticket offices with staff in them and the
same window to converse through. The only practical difference at
those seems to be the lack of ticket-issuing equipment within those
offices so that staff come out to the machines when human intervention
is necessary.


So they're not actually ticket offices, are they? They're basically staff
rooms for the reduced station staff.

There are more station staff than there used to be at the stations
where LU has taken over the management.


More than in recent LO days, or more than in Silverlink days?

More than in earlier LO days as well but it depends on the time of
day. Some stations are now totally unstaffed at night with barriers
left open where previously there would have been one person there
until the last train. During the day (it might vary by station) in my
local station there is one person lurking in the not-a-booking office
with another one on each platform although I'm not sure exactly what
functions they are performing.


That sounds like less than LU staffing levels (but much better than in the
benighted Silverlink era) ?

Apart from e.g. Wembley, Harrow and Queens Park that was usually one
person in the booking office and one on the barrier with the BO
unstaffed from some time in the evening. Kilburn High Road and South
Hampstead were usually single-manned but seemed to share a third
person (officially belonging to/shared with Queens Park?) doing the
sweeping up etc. during the day.