Electric Shapps
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a 5a7

Electric Shapps
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a 5a7

so the reasons seem to be:

because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

not very compelling, is it?

especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house

tim

Electric Shapps
 

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a 5a7

so the reasons seem to be:

because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?

It seems to be the biggest factor with BEVs and PHEVs: withdraw the
subsidy, and sales plummet. That's been demonstrated in both the UK and
many other countries. And when you consider that, even with the subsidy,
most BEVs are also loss-making for the manufacturer, it's clear that the
gap between what most people are willing to pay and what it costs to make
them is still large (though shrinking).


So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?


not very compelling, is it?

It presumably is for a virtue-signalling politician.


especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house

Same here.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 08:45:36 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
tim... remarked:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...21daed84a5f553
e362f97fc7a5a7

so the reasons seem to be:

because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car
(after options) is that really a deal maker?

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average second hand petrol model achieves that

not very compelling, is it?

The various greenwash suspicions are interestingly at odds with a much
earlier decision not to buy Priuses(sp) as ministerial cars, because
their overall footprint wasn't regarded as sufficiently compelling.

especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house

The nearest two Tesla chargers to my house are both 15 minutes drive,
and at hotel/B&B type locations. Are those truly "public"?

I'm surprised to see there's a "Pod point" [whatever that is] charger at
the Sainsbury's, because I've never noticed it. I'll go take a proper
look tomorrow.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 08:22:19 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:22:19 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have to
get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.


I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.

Electric Shapps
 

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 01:36:43 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a 5a7

Good job he got his Telsa before the subsidy's withdrawn, then.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...-out-bfq8b6ppp

And the minister pointing this out? Grant Shapps.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Electric Shapps
 

On 08/09/2019 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 10:28:14 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.

I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.

It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.

Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.

But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.

Sometimes people use "M25" as a proxy for "GLA area", even though they
don't co-ibcide.

When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 11:58:26 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial conflation
of GLA/M25).
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:14 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.

I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.

It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.

Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.

True, but he was virtue-signalling. I also wonder how many other
conventional cars his family runs?


But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Electric Shapps
 

On 08/09/2019 12:29, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:58:26 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,Â* Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.
Â*At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

Â*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial conflation
of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 13:00:57 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:

*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.

Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by
the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus routes"
and no doubt other metrics as well.

So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

So no problem?


London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

Sounds like it's a non-issue?

Electric Shapps
 

On 08/09/2019 13:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.


Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I
suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

On 08/09/2019 13:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:00:57 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:

Â*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
insideÂ* the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

Â*There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflationÂ* of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.

Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by
the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus routes"
and no doubt other metrics as well.


You left out served by tube trains :-)


So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.

But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:13:57 on
Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

So no problem?

Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

Sounds like it's a non-issue?

Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:15:27 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 13:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's
bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than
a traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include
any bus routes.

Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?

You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can walk
the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion Charge
Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I
suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.

Only if they can cover the whole of inside the N/S Circular on battery,
once the zone has extended that far.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:16:46 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside* the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

*There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation* of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled
by the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus
routes" and no doubt other metrics as well.

You left out served by tube trains :-)

So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.

But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.

The strong feelings I've read about are people near the M25, but in GLA,
who think ZEV shouldn't go that far out.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 08/09/2019 16:03, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:15:27 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 13:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,Â* Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's
bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will
be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be
possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
Â*The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than
aÂ* traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't
include anyÂ* bus routes.

Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?

You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can walk
the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion Charge
Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).

Wasn't there a fuss some years back because a car tried to follow a bus
into the pedestrian area and got thrown aside by the rising pillar and
nearly hit a pedestrian nearby?


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

On 08/09/2019 16:04, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:16:46 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
Â*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
insideÂ* the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
Â*
Â*There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflationÂ* of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Â*Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled
byÂ* the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus
routes"Â* and no doubt other metrics as well.

You left out served by tube trains :-)

Â*So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.

But still one that people inside but not in London have strong
feelings about.

The strong feelings I've read about are people near the M25, but in GLA,
who think ZEV shouldn't go that far out.

I was thinking of those who object to being regarded as part London in
any circumstances, not just the Total Exclusion Zone.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:16:46 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
Â*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
insideÂ* the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

Â*There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflationÂ* of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled
by the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus
routes" and no doubt other metrics as well.

You left out served by tube trains :-)

So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.

But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.

The strong feelings I've read about are people near the M25, but in GLA,
who think ZEV shouldn't go that far out.

The ZEV zone would be much smaller, no more than the Congestion zone (ie,
less than Zone 1). The LEV zone is much larger.

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:15:27 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 13:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's
bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than
a traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include
any bus routes.

Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?

You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can walk
the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion Charge
Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I
suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.

Only if they can cover the whole of inside the N/S Circular on battery,
once the zone has extended that far.

The ZEV zone will be far smaller than that, at least for the foreseeable
future.

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:13:57 on
Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

So no problem?

Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.

In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?


London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

Sounds like it's a non-issue?

Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.

We were discussing Oxford, not London.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 16:23:58 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Graeme Wall remarked:

Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?

You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can
walk the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion
Charge Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).

Wasn't there a fuss some years back because a car tried to follow a bus
into the pedestrian area and got thrown aside by the rising pillar and
nearly hit a pedestrian nearby?

Not that I recall. But other cities have.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 15:34:45 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:13:57 on
Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

So no problem?

Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.

In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?


London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre,
******
and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

Sounds like it's a non-issue?

Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.

We were discussing Oxford, not London.

See ******

--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a 5a7

so the reasons seem to be:

because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?

It seems to be the biggest factor with BEVs and PHEVs: withdraw the
subsidy, and sales plummet. That's been demonstrated in both the UK and
many other countries. And when you consider that, even with the subsidy,
most BEVs are also loss-making for the manufacturer, it's clear that the
gap between what most people are willing to pay and what it costs to make
them is still large (though shrinking).


So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

in what way

Electric Shapps
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to
get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline


tim

Electric Shapps
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!

surely it's the area where busses operated by what (I presume) was called
London Transport at the time, go to

even when they go outside the M25 (such as 81 to Slough)

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 18:57:37 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
tim... remarked:
When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!

surely it's the area where busses operated by what (I presume) was
called London Transport at the time, go to

even when they go outside the M25 (such as 81 to Slough)

Let's not re-run that debate.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 08/09/2019 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside the
M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

As I'm sure that there is from communities that do consider themselves part
of London who don't have the same bus-every-5-minutes frequency to a tube
station that the Central area does

I bet the residents of Biggin Hill won't be impressed with being told they
have to pay 20 quid to drive to their local supermarket

Electric Shapps
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:00:57 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:

I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.

There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation of GLA/M25).

The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.

Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by the
Met Police",

now coincides with the GLA

agreed it didn't 30 years (or whatever) ago

tim

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:34:45 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:13:57 on
Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

So no problem?

Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.

In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?


London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre,
******
and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

Sounds like it's a non-issue?

Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.

We were discussing Oxford, not London.

See ******


And there you go again, cropping out the relevant part of the conversation:

Electric Shapps
 

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline

Have you only just noticed?

The original Congestion Charge (â„¢ Red Ken) was a bonus for plutocrats,
clearing the streets of most of the pesky scruffy, cheap cars driven by
poorer commuters. And Sadiq's ULEZ is another bonus for people with nice
modern cars, clearing the streets of the smoky diesels and old petrol
wrecks. So, yes, Labour mayors go out of the way to banish cheaper, older
cars from London's congested streets, leaving them clear for well-heeled
commuters in shiny new cars.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 19:14:04 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:34:45 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:13:57 on
Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on.
There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question
will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

So no problem?

Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.

In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?


London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre,
******
and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

Where do you put the transfer bus stations.

Sounds like it's a non-issue?

Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.

We were discussing Oxford, not London.

See ******


And there you go again, cropping out the relevant part of the conversation:

I deliberately cropped nothing.

The London-**** is more than halfway down, too. (So trimming down to
there was tempting).
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On Sun, Sep 08, 2019 at 09:32:13AM +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

The nearest two Tesla chargers to my house are both 15 minutes drive,
and at hotel/B&B type locations. Are those truly "public"?

As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in. Those "public" charging stations are on
the premises of a hotel, in a car park with prominent signs saying that
it is for paying guests only, and on the forecourt of a Hyundai dealer,
so I *ass*ume that other manufacturers' vehicles aren't welcome.

--
David Cantrell | Pope | First Church of the Symmetrical Internet

Anyone willing to give up a little fun for tolerance deserves neither

Electric Shapps
 

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.