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  #31   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 01:43 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks


Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets


the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg

and wheeled cages,


wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes


The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train; plenty more won’t be
carrying stuff which needs to go to city centres.


Anna Noyd-Dryver



  #32   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 01:49 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets


the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,


wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.


No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.




Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes


The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??


They don't all get delivered to one port. A better idea of throughput is
that each crane can shift up to 400 containers per shift, with three or
four cranes per vessel. Figure derived from a doco on Southampton
Container Port a few years back. 400 is the upper end of practicality,
350 per shift would be more normal.


OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Full containers would still continue by train and lorry to inland
container ports.



  #33   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 01:52 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 13:26, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
Robin9 wrote:

Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.


It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.


They seem to have found some:

Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856,
returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They
will use Platforms 9 and 10.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...-trial-planned

How are they going to tansfer between train and road vehicle? I didn't
think there was any access for road vehicles to the platforms at
Liverpool Street railway station these days.
  #34   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 02:00 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 9,830
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

In message , at 11:13:05 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:

Economics is a very big component of "workable".

Not in most dictionaries.


You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it.


Now you're just arguing for argument's sake.


Pointing out basic economics doesn't meet that definition.

Things have obviously changed six years later.

Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration.

No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts
next May.


Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped.


Hardly. The train order was placed ten months ago, not 'far in the future'.


Next May is too far in the future for us to predict today that it will
actually happen.

My main reservation is that the work is being done by Wabtec (Brush)
Loughborough, which seems to be late with everything.


I've recently been reading about 2014 ambitions for East-West rail (for
a discussion in another place). The one consistency is that pretty much
all the prerequisites upon which that plan was based have failed to
materialise either on time (eg Ely North junction by 2016, or other much
more significant projects like Crossrail) or at all (eg MML
electrification).

Rail industry vapourware is rampant.
--
Roland Perry
  #35   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 02:01 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, tim... remarked:

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are.
--
Roland Perry


  #36   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 02:34 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 232
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.


No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.



Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember
watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the
service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded
the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly
considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due
to the limited platform width.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
  #37   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 02:35 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 232
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

wrote:
On 22/10/2019 13:26, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
Robin9 wrote:

Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.


It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.


They seem to have found some:

Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856,
returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They
will use Platforms 9 and 10.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...-trial-planned

How are they going to tansfer between train and road vehicle? I didn't
think there was any access for road vehicles to the platforms at
Liverpool Street railway station these days.


The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level.
ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so
presumably there’s still access.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

  #38   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:10 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 120
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes


His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.


you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E

GH


  #39   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:39 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 958
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets


the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,


wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.


No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads
for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the
customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra
handling phase, depot - train - van.


I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps

However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major
city centres it could well be economically feasible.


Yes I can see that.

The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.)

The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the
first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).


Oh I know what you mean now, Never knew the name though.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes


The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??


They don't all get delivered to one port.


Oh OK.

tim


  #40   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:39 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 958
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.


No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more
commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be
achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for
other purposes.


flower displays :-)

tim





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