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  #41   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 02:43 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets


the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack



and wheeled cages,


wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000
miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes


The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train;


Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)

tim




  #42   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:02 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2019
Posts: 49
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 14:34, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.

No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.



Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember
watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the
service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded
the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly
considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due
to the limited platform width.


The signs showing the locations for destinations on the mail and parcel
trains are still located on Temple Meads railway station. I often
wonder if they are included in the listed status of the station.

  #43   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:41 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 266
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift


2.5 tonnes according to the various images at the top of the first page of
a google search.

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
  #44   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:43 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,596
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 15:39, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by
individual units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.


No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations
get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van.


I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps


One step: depot to van

Two steps, depot to train to van


However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in
major city centres it could well be economically feasible.


Yes I can see that.

The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.)


The $64,000 question.


The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in
the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility
Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common
sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).


Oh I know what you mean now,* Never knew the name though.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells
me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??


They don't all get delivered to one port.


Oh OK.


The ship will continue on, most likely to Antwerp or Rotterdam if
eastbound, to make further deliveries.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

  #45   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 03:44 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,596
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 15:43, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack



and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported
6000 miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment


Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells
me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train;


Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)


Awkward, you? Surely not :-)


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.



  #46   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 04:08 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2019
Posts: 622
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.


you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.


  #47   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 04:10 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 13
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Plural of BRUTE aka "British Rail Universal Trolley Equipment"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...lley_Equipment


  #48   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 04:18 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2018
Posts: 148
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

tim... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.

No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more
commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be
achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for
other purposes.


flower displays :-)

tim





They used to make good extra seating when left on platforms.


GH

  #49   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 04:22 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,596
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 17:08, Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.

you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new,


The first ones were in the late 1960s IIRC.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

  #50   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 19, 04:30 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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First recorded activity at LondonBanter: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,071
Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


more than one

tim





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