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Old October 22nd 19, 05:30 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 15:43, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need
flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one
of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack



and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000
miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train;


Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)


Awkward, you? Surely not :-)


I learnt it from Roland :-)




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Old October 22nd 19, 05:34 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019,
tim... remarked:

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are.


If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not

I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like
TOPS.



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Old October 22nd 19, 05:55 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St



"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.


Some of the "inside the factory" series have shown robot vehicles moving
around freely (obviously to some pre-programmed destination) and stopping
for people who get in their way

Cherry and Greg almost wet themselves at how exciting this technology is :-)
[1]

Can't remember which ones

tim

[1] Sorry that's an in joke from elsewhere


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Old October 22nd 19, 06:22 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

In article ,
Recliner wrote:
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ...


Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines?

--
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Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
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Old October 22nd 19, 06:58 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 18:22, John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Recliner wrote:
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ...


Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines?


Perhaps they will generate power when the train is on non-electrified
lines but not running, as opposed to being on non-electrified lines and
coasting along with the momentum gained previously from the wires behind
it. But I don't think that's what they meant.


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Old October 22nd 19, 07:46 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


Anna Noyd-Dryver

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Old October 22nd 19, 07:53 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 10:58, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.


Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?


That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years
later.


Whatever happened with the pilot programme to move freight about
Amsterdam via tram?

There was also CarGo in Leipzig, which served the VW plant in the area.
I wonder if anybody is thinking of restarting that service or even
expanding it to serve other parts of town.
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Old October 22nd 19, 08:50 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

On 22/10/2019 10:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 09:49, Recliner wrote:
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.

The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway
and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.

A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.

Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.

Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different
companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.

Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the
ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from
April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.

Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to
£200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”

ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak
hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.

The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when
the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight
sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.

ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London
and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.

DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west
London, by
river.


Then ship them up the Grand Union to* Birmingham!


I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find
commercial use once again.

Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via
Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however.

Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic?
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Old October 22nd 19, 11:37 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St

Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.

you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.




Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles
which is why I added the caveat
of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a
large supermarket and further replace
the need for human staff

As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a
flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers
vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in
demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do
have to avoid each other.

I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space
anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells
idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a
super gauge railway.


GH



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