In article , writes
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:19:01 +0000
"Clive D.W. Feather" wrote:
Based on a 2015 FOI request, the following platforms are at least 15
metres below sea level (numbers are metres above LU datum, which is
exactly 100 metres below the OS datum at Newlyn):
*Above* the LU datum? Why did they choose something so deep as a base point?

So that all the numbers are positive. They could have used 50 or 30
metres, but this way they're unlikely to ever need to change it.

Similarly the Eurotunnel zero point is around the 63 milepost west of
Westenhangar, rather than at the concession boundary.

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

74.20 metres LU datum.

Other platforms below sea level a

Beckton Park 99.96
Cutty Sark 86.05
Cyprus 99.98
Island Gardens 94.94

The greatest distances below ground level (which is not necessarily
measured at the station entrance) a

Bank 41.10
Cutty Sark 18.25
Woolwich Arsenal 11.32
Island Gardens 7.16

12 other stations have platforms between 0.00 and 4.50 below ground
level.

--
Clive D.W. Feather

In message , at 14:26:06 on Sun, 17 Nov
2019, Clive D.W. Feather remarked:
In article , writes
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:19:01 +0000
"Clive D.W. Feather" wrote:
Based on a 2015 FOI request, the following platforms are at least 15
metres below sea level (numbers are metres above LU datum, which is
exactly 100 metres below the OS datum at Newlyn):
*Above* the LU datum? Why did they choose something so deep as a base point?

So that all the numbers are positive. They could have used 50 or 30
metres, but this way they're unlikely to ever need to change it.

Similarly the Eurotunnel zero point is around the 63 milepost west of
Westenhangar, rather than at the concession boundary.

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line
platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

74.20 metres LU datum.

Hmm, that puts it less deep than Waterloo, and contradicts a general
online consensus and my own arithmetic (where have my ~2.5m disappeared?

Other platforms below sea level a

Beckton Park 99.96
Cutty Sark 86.05
Cyprus 99.98
Island Gardens 94.94

The greatest distances below ground level (which is not necessarily
measured at the station entrance)

Is that where the difference between the 41.1 and 41.4 arises?

a

Bank 41.10
Cutty Sark 18.25
Woolwich Arsenal 11.32
Island Gardens 7.16

12 other stations have platforms between 0.00 and 4.50 below ground
level.


--
Roland Perry

Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
In article , writes
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:19:01 +0000
"Clive D.W. Feather" wrote:
Based on a 2015 FOI request, the following platforms are at least 15
metres below sea level (numbers are metres above LU datum, which is
exactly 100 metres below the OS datum at Newlyn):
*Above* the LU datum? Why did they choose something so deep as a base point?

So that all the numbers are positive. They could have used 50 or 30
metres, but this way they're unlikely to ever need to change it.

Similarly the Eurotunnel zero point is around the 63 milepost west of
Westenhangar, rather than at the concession boundary.

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

74.20 metres LU datum.

It's interesting that the next station from the more-or-less the deepest
station is on a viaduct (Shadwell). It's quite a climb.

The other deep stations are much further away from portals.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:23:13 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:08:39 on Sun, 17 Nov
2019, remarked:

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up
between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line
platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

41.4m below street level apparently. Street level is 13m, so around
28-29m below sea level. Thus 2-3m deeper than Jubilee at Waterloo.

And hence about 12m below the northern at Bank (which seems reasonable).


Which, of course, is why I asked about the DLR at Bank upthread:

Roland Perry wrote:
Recliner remarked:

What about the DLR at Bank?

Gets tangled up in whether it's a "tube" service or not.

Its not a tube, its simply londons 2nd metro system and is bigger than a lot of
cities primary metros. According to wonkymedia it has half the route mileage of
the Tyne and Wear metro which isn't bad for what was originally a cheap as
chips solution for rail PT in docklands.

In message , at 16:20:48 on Sun, 17 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Based on a 2015 FOI request, the following platforms are at least 15
metres below sea level (numbers are metres above LU datum, which is
exactly 100 metres below the OS datum at Newlyn):
*Above* the LU datum? Why did they choose something so deep as a base point?

So that all the numbers are positive. They could have used 50 or 30
metres, but this way they're unlikely to ever need to change it.

Similarly the Eurotunnel zero point is around the 63 milepost west of
Westenhangar, rather than at the concession boundary.

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

74.20 metres LU datum.

It's interesting that the next station from the more-or-less the deepest
station is on a viaduct (Shadwell). It's quite a climb.

Yes, it's almost as good as a ride at a theme park (if you get a front
seat).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:20:48 on Sun, 17 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Based on a 2015 FOI request, the following platforms are at least 15
metres below sea level (numbers are metres above LU datum, which is
exactly 100 metres below the OS datum at Newlyn):
*Above* the LU datum? Why did they choose something so deep as a base point?

So that all the numbers are positive. They could have used 50 or 30
metres, but this way they're unlikely to ever need to change it.

Similarly the Eurotunnel zero point is around the 63 milepost west of
Westenhangar, rather than at the concession boundary.

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

74.20 metres LU datum.

It's interesting that the next station from the more-or-less the deepest
station is on a viaduct (Shadwell). It's quite a climb.

Yes, it's almost as good as a ride at a theme park (if you get a front
seat).

There's a lot of competition for those…

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:19:56 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:20:48 on Sun, 17 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Based on a 2015 FOI request, the following platforms are at least 15
metres below sea level (numbers are metres above LU datum, which is
exactly 100 metres below the OS datum at Newlyn):
*Above* the LU datum? Why did they choose something so deep as a base
point?

So that all the numbers are positive. They could have used 50 or 30
metres, but this way they're unlikely to ever need to change it.

Similarly the Eurotunnel zero point is around the 63 milepost west of
Westenhangar, rather than at the concession boundary.

74.0 Waterloo (Jubilee)
84.4 Bank (Northern)

Looks like the actual deepest railway platform in London is a toss up
between
jubilee waterloo and Bank DLR which is way beneath the northern line
platforms.
Anyone know how deep the DLR is?

74.20 metres LU datum.

It's interesting that the next station from the more-or-less the deepest
station is on a viaduct (Shadwell). It's quite a climb.

Yes, it's almost as good as a ride at a theme park (if you get a front
seat).

Probably not best to think about what would happen if the brakes failed.
I'm guessing there must be multiple redundancy within the cars as well as
between them.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 16:40:06 on Tue, 12 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:04:13 on Mon, 11 Nov
2019, Recliner remarked:
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately,
because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than
people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when
coming
from Heathrow T5.

Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And,
he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.

To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.

That's the HEx share.

HEx plus Heathrow Connect, although the split is in the region of nine
percentage points for HEx, and one for Connect. The latter is not nearly
as popular as people here imagine.

The Tube carries about twice as many.

18% according to the survey I was quoting. But that's not the point -
which is that HEx is *not* the choice of 90(+)%, but is still based on a
solid business case. That 9% using HEx have very good reasons for doing
so, even if our "from the 90% (or is that 91%)" correspondents here are in
denial.

Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.

While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.

Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to
many
HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without
changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That
explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022.

And you are determined to ignore the reasons why people take the "airport
express" rather than grappling with what they perceive to be the local
commuter services.

33% of passengers use a taxi (or private hire) which is of course the
ultimate default when in a strange country. Not all of those will be
heading towards Central London, but the main reason for HEx was to limit
that percentage as much as possible to reduce road congestion/pollution,
by abstracting those passengers who could be attracted by a fast, sexy,
"airport express", with chuggers selling tickets.

You might dislike the chuggers, but the people who are winning here are
other road users and local residents breathing the air[2]. Significant
numbers of those choosing HEx would not be seen dead on a local commuter
service (or more to the point, might suspect they'd be dead if they were
ever seen on it).

and yet those very same people happily buy a Visitor's Oyster card for use
in travel around the sights for the rest of their holiday

Strange isn't it

tim

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:43:10 on Wed, 6 Nov 2019,
John Levine remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor
reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised.

What I mean is that city subways get tarred with that brush,
irrespective of whether or not the NY on goes anywhere near an airport.

The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

Yes, it's straightforward racial prejudice with MARTA. That could also
apply to some other public transit systems that serve airports.

When on a trip to DC (generally, not the airport) after having ridden the
subway to somewhere or other my friend pointed out to me "we were the only
white people on that train"

and I believe DC has a much less segregated population than Atlanta.

tim

wrote in message ...
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:50:33 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:05:39 on Wed, 6 Nov
2019, remarked:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:16:22 on Sun, 3 Nov 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It's not just tourists and Heathrow workers who have to get to the
airport:
plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the
airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when
it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will
immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

I think you're underestimating them. Its not the 1990s anymore where
tourists
rock up in a new place scratching their heads and clutching a Lonely
Planet
book not quite sure what to do. I imagine most of them will have done
their
homework online including the best way to get from the airport to their
hotel
and if that involves a train no doubt Crossrail will feature.

Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

so good news for those of us for which it remains the most appropriate route

(right bugger it was finding an alternative when it was AFU on Monday
morning)

tim