On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:45:52 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:03 on Thu, 17 Dec
2020, remarked:
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.

Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.

Because it used to be a tube line, still gets used as such and is far more
integrated with the tube network than Thameslink. A few years ago I along with
hundreds of others used to change at FP to get the moorgate line.

"Basil Jet" wrote in message
...
On 17/12/2020 10:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:03 on Thu, 17 Dec
2020, remarked:

Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't
include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.

Another factor is that the GN&C south of Krapy Rubsnif has a metro-style
service where every train calls at every station. People trying to use NR
from Waterloo to Clapham Junction might end up accidentally boarding a
train that doesn't stop until Yeovil or somewhere like that.

That happened to me! In the days before the regular Clapham Junction to
Willesden Junction service, when the only trains which did that line were
peak-hours local trains, and long distance trains that used it as an
avoiding line, I wanted to get from Waterloo to Clapham Junction to get a
train to "do" the CJ-WJ line. I thought that "all" trains from Waterloo to
destinations around London (so not the Yeovil of you example!) stopped at
CJ. This one didn't. Its first stop was at Ashford (Surrey). I felt a bit of
a berk as it sailed through CJ. I had to backtrack, hoping that no-one
noticed that I had gone outside the boundary validity of my Capitalcard
ticket. I did manage to catch a later CJ-Olympia train so I still managed to
"do" that line. Of course nowadays, CJ-WJ trains are ten a penny ;-)

In message , at 11:06:01 on Thu, 17 Dec
2020, NY remarked:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.

I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!)
between which lines to include and which to omit.

You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground
lines, and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were
traditionally British Rail / Network Rail).

At one extreme it could be any on which Oyster is accepted. At the other
only those which traverse Zone 1. I note they exclude the National Rail
line via Olympia (Milton Keynes to Wandsworth Common and points south).

You could additionally include London Overground. You could include
GOBLIN, North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate.
But should you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail
services?

When FP-Moorgate was first transferred to British Rail, it was included
as a courtesy service on Underground maps, maybe because until 1976 it
had been a tube line (though not a very useful one in its final days,
because there was a gap between Old Street as the northern terminus of
the Moorgate line and BR services that called at FP).

I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical ticket
for use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use a
non-Underground line that called at stations within the zones that your
ticket covers. I don't know much about Oyster and tickets bought at
Underground stations because whenever I went up to London I bought a
Day Rover (Capitalcard) ticket which covered me for my return journey
into London and then unlimited use of Underground and NR trains within
the Greater London area (maybe out to Zone 9 on the new map that is
being discussed) - so I was a bit pampered in automatically having an
all-zones ticket. It's also a good 10 or more years since I've been to
London...

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:22:31 on Thu, 17 Dec
2020, Rolf Mantel remarked:
Am 17.12.2020 um 12:06 schrieb NY:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't
include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!)
between which lines to include and which to omit.

[..]

I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical
ticket for use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use
a non-Underground line that called at stations within the zones that
your ticket covers.
As a London tourist, I would have drawn the line at a service frequency
as well: There should be a minimum of 6 tph (maximum 10 minutes waiting
time) during daytime for the line to serve a meaningful purpose as a
local connection.

Would you exclude TfL Tube [subsurface] lines which didn't comply with
that frequency?
--
Roland Perry

On 17/12/2020 09:35, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:59:14 on Wed, 16 Dec 2020,
Recliner remarked:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 16/12/2020 19:58, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:50:32 on Wed, 16 Dec
2020, Basil Jet remarked:
On 16/12/2020 10:41, Recliner wrote:
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map,
after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as
fits in
the extended zones. So the map now features over 500 stations:
Â*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ5SQcdC48o

The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available
at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/202...back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/

Test tube map?

No, it seems to be the final one. Here's another example:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large

Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.

Looks like it would easily fit between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, but
not much space for the Hertford Loop.

I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.

The London Connections map displays a straighter Thameslink in the same
colour scheme. The map we're discussing seems to be an uneasy hybrid of
the traditional tube maps and London Connections. The latter is far
more useful for making journeys such as Vauxhall to Clapham Junction,
which can seem long and complex if planned on the wrong map.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/London_Connections.pdf

On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:06:01 -0000, "NY" wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.

I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!) between
which lines to include and which to omit.

You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground lines,
and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were traditionally
British Rail / Network Rail).

You could additionally include London Overground. You could include GOBLIN,
North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate. But should
you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail services?

snip
You could just resume publication of the fold-up "all lines" maps that
were available years ago but now only seem to exist in the form of
posters at stations or PDF files.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rai...rvices-map.pdf

On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:42:36 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 17/12/2020 10:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:03 on Thu, 17 Dec
2020, remarked:

Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.

Another factor is that the GN&C south of Krapy Rubsnif has a metro-style
service where every train calls at every station. People trying to use
NR from Waterloo to Clapham Junction might end up accidentally boarding
a train that doesn't stop until Yeovil or somewhere like that.

Getting on the wrong train at Waterloo would usually involve ignoring
the indicator not listing Clapham Junction and getting on one of the
trains which is both not shown as stopping there and which does not
stop there.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:01:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

Marland wrote:
Basil Jet wrote:
On 16/12/2020 19:58, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:50:32 on Wed, 16 Dec
2020, Basil Jet remarked:
On 16/12/2020 10:41, Recliner wrote:
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map,
after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as
fits in
the extended zones. So the map now features over 500 stations:
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ5SQcdC48o

The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available
at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/202...back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/

Test tube map?


Just put out to test a reaction .


No, it's officially on the Tube map for at least the next 12 months, both
because of Covid and the planned Bank branch closures:

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2020/december/thameslink-services-set-to-be-temporarily-added-to-latest-tube-map-to-help-support-customers-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic

Whoosh!

On 17/12/2020 11:56, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:45:52 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:03 on Thu, 17 Dec
2020, remarked:
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.

Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.

I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.

Because it used to be a tube line, still gets used as such

What does "get used as a tube line" mean?


and is far more
integrated with the tube network than Thameslink. A few years ago I along with
hundreds of others used to change at FP to get the moorgate line.


--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mouse On Mars - 1999 - Niun Niggung

On 17/12/2020 13:12, Certes wrote:

The London Connections map displays a straighter Thameslink in the same
colour scheme.Â* The map we're discussing seems to be an uneasy hybrid of
the traditional tube maps and London Connections.

It also probably has Crossrail through Farringdon on it, although that
was hidden in the released version, but it will still be there in the
document, forcing the positions of everything else. I say that because
ISTR the map was redesigned to allow Crossrail a few years ago, and is
likely to have kept that configuration.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mouse On Mars - 1999 - Niun Niggung