David Bradley wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:29 +0100, "Solar Penguin"
wrote:


--- "PRAR" wrote:


227, London's favourite bus route.


And a very crowded bus route. Trams, with their higher
passenger-carrying capacity, would be an improvement.

How exactly? You can't get more people on a tram than you can a bus.
Each passenger requires a similar amount of space on either vehicle
and a tram with 300 people on board would be just as crowded as a bus.

Firstly the carrying capacity of most trams is greater than that of most
buses. Secondly it is possible to couple two (and possibly more) trams
together to increase the capacity and still only need one driver.


If the passenger demand is there, then a more frequent bus service
would serve the the travelling public much better than the not
inconsiderable expense, and construction disruption, of a tramway to
provide the same result.

You're overlooking one vital factor, people don't like buses. They are
perceived as a poor quality product.

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:40 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:29 +0100, "Solar Penguin"
wrote:


--- "PRAR" wrote:


227, London's favourite bus route.


And a very crowded bus route. Trams, with their higher
passenger-carrying capacity, would be an improvement.

How exactly? You can't get more people on a tram than you can a bus.
Each passenger requires a similar amount of space on either vehicle
and a tram with 300 people on board would be just as crowded as a bus.

Firstly the carrying capacity of most trams is greater than that of most
buses. Secondly it is possible to couple two (and possibly more) trams
together to increase the capacity and still only need one driver.


Your first statement is untrue, trams carry more passengers because
they are physically larger! One would expect a railed vehicle 35m
long to hold roughly twice as many passengers as an 18m-long
articulated single-deck bus, and this indeed turns out to be the case.
The capacity for the given space is not greater, only a saving in man
power.

Your second statement suggests vehicle lengths on the public highway
that would be totally unacceptable. Finding seggrated road space for
even part of the route of a tramway is very difficult, if not
impossible. Unless, of course, you make the former highway a no go
area for other modes of traffic.


If the passenger demand is there, then a more frequent bus service
would serve the travelling public much better than the not
inconsiderable expense, and construction disruption, of a tramway to
provide the same result.

You're overlooking one vital factor, people don't like buses. They are
perceived as a poor quality product.

Possibly so, but elsewhere in the EU, where modern trolleybus systems
have been created in the last few years [e.g. Athens] there has been a
significant model shift of passengers to rubber tyred trams which has
not been less than their steel vehicle cousins found elsewhere.

Here in the UK a visit to Sheffield shows that travellers prefer the
bus instead of the tram; explain that one away!

David Bradley

In message , David Bradley
writes
Here in the UK a visit to Sheffield shows that travellers prefer the
bus instead of the tram; explain that one away!

Because in deregulated Sheffield, the bus fare are lower than the tram
fares?

Interestingly, Midland Metro fares are higher (sometimes significantly
higher) than those on the parallel bus service, run by TWM, like Travel
Midland Metro a subsidiary of national Express. And yet Midland Metro
is regularly crowded.......
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In article
"David Bradley" writes:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:40 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:29 +0100, "Solar Penguin"
snip
How exactly? You can't get more people on a tram than you can a bus.
Each passenger requires a similar amount of space on either vehicle
and a tram with 300 people on board would be just as crowded as a bus.

Firstly the carrying capacity of most trams is greater than that of most
buses. Secondly it is possible to couple two (and possibly more) trams
together to increase the capacity and still only need one driver.


Your first statement is untrue, trams carry more passengers because
they are physically larger!
Therefore you _can_ "get more people on a tram than you can on a bus" as
it is not permitted (or practicable?) to build a bus to carry as many
people as the larger trams currently in operation.

snip
Your second statement suggests vehicle lengths on the public highway
that would be totally unacceptable.
From the Highway Code:-
"Take care where trams (which can be up to 60 metres [196ft] in length)
run along the road."
That sounds rather like official acceptance/anticipation of more than
two vehicles coupled together.
snip
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson: | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|

On Tue, 28 Sep 04 19:09:27 GMT, (Charles
Ellson) wrote:

In article
"David Bradley" writes:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:40 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:29 +0100, "Solar Penguin"
snip
How exactly? You can't get more people on a tram than you can a bus.
Each passenger requires a similar amount of space on either vehicle
and a tram with 300 people on board would be just as crowded as a bus.

Firstly the carrying capacity of most trams is greater than that of most
buses. Secondly it is possible to couple two (and possibly more) trams
together to increase the capacity and still only need one driver.


Your first statement is untrue, trams carry more passengers because
they are physically larger!
Therefore you _can_ "get more people on a tram than you can on a bus" as
it is not permitted (or practicable?) to build a bus to carry as many
people as the larger trams currently in operation.

My, we are being pedantic with this aren't we? As it happens there
are some pretty huge DD buses around that can certainly pack the
punters in, but I would not advocate their use even if they were
permitted in the UK. But to get back to the point, you can certainly
get more people on a single tram, but each person takes up the same
amount of room irespective of the mode of travel, so size for size you
can't get more people on a tram. Your statement that "You can get
more people on a tram than you can a bus" is therefore false unless
the tram is larger than the bus.

snip
Your second statement suggests vehicle lengths on the public highway
that would be totally unacceptable.
From the Highway Code:-
"Take care where trams (which can be up to 60 metres [196ft] in length)
run along the road."
That sounds rather like official acceptance/anticipation of more than
two vehicles coupled together.

Nope, this is in the Highway Code to cover circumstances of a one tram
towing a disable vehicle to the depot. It is not permitted in the UK
to have trams in revenue earning service of almost 200ft in length.
snip

David Bradley

David Bradley wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 04 19:09:27 GMT, (Charles
Ellson) wrote:


In article
"David Bradley" writes:


On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:40 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote:


David Bradley wrote:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:29 +0100, "Solar Penguin"

snip

How exactly? You can't get more people on a tram than you can a bus.
Each passenger requires a similar amount of space on either vehicle
and a tram with 300 people on board would be just as crowded as a bus.

Firstly the carrying capacity of most trams is greater than that of most
buses. Secondly it is possible to couple two (and possibly more) trams
together to increase the capacity and still only need one driver.


Your first statement is untrue, trams carry more passengers because
they are physically larger!

Therefore you _can_ "get more people on a tram than you can on a bus" as
it is not permitted (or practicable?) to build a bus to carry as many
people as the larger trams currently in operation.


My, we are being pedantic with this aren't we? As it happens there
are some pretty huge DD buses around that can certainly pack the
punters in, but I would not advocate their use even if they were
permitted in the UK. But to get back to the point, you can certainly
get more people on a single tram, but each person takes up the same
amount of room irespective of the mode of travel, so size for size you
can't get more people on a tram. Your statement that "You can get
more people on a tram than you can a bus" is therefore false unless
the tram is larger than the bus.

It's safe to say that a tram is larger than a bus given that we are
talking about Croydon trams vs London buses. All modern trams in the UK
are larger than the vast majority of buses anyway - so I wouldn't say he
was being pedantic at all.

snip

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Tue, 28 Sep 04 19:09:27 GMT, (Charles
Ellson) wrote:

Your second statement suggests vehicle lengths on the public highway
that would be totally unacceptable.
From the Highway Code:-
"Take care where trams (which can be up to 60 metres [196ft] in length)
run along the road."
That sounds rather like official acceptance/anticipation of more than
two vehicles coupled together.

The Highway Code is available online at http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/

I have spent a fair while looking through all the obvious places where
that statement might be but was unable to find this piece of
information. Could someone please say where in this electronic
document it can be found?

David Bradley

In article
"David Bradley" writes:

On Tue, 28 Sep 04 19:09:27 GMT, (Charles
Ellson) wrote:

Your second statement suggests vehicle lengths on the public highway
that would be totally unacceptable.
From the Highway Code:-
"Take care where trams (which can be up to 60 metres [196ft] in length)
run along the road."
That sounds rather like official acceptance/anticipation of more than
two vehicles coupled together.

The Highway Code is available online at http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/

I have spent a fair while looking through all the obvious places where
that statement might be but was unable to find this piece of
information. Could someone please say where in this electronic
document it can be found?

The revisionists appear to have been at work. It was in rule 236 in the
1996 edition (also in the NI equivalent which helpfully stated "Currently
applies to Great Britain only") but no longer appears in the replacement
rule 273.
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson: | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:32:40 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote:

You're overlooking one vital factor, people don't like buses. They are
perceived as a poor quality product.

Which is because, in the way they are operated in this country, they
generally *are* a poor-quality product. This applies to everything
from the vehicles themselves to ticketing, staff, routes,
co-ordination, information, connections and so on.

While living in Germany, where most of this is done much more
professionally, I did not see such a stigma.

It'll take a long time to reverse this, but I see TfL are doing a lot
more about it than anywhere else in the country.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain