On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:07:59 +0100,
Clive D. W. Feather
wrote in :
In article , Martin Rich
writes
It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

I saw my first laser during my introductory First Year Physics
lectures in 1970. I watched the laser spot in interest as the lecturer
(Ronald MacDonald) set it up, then gasped in awe as he walked straight
through the beam _and was not cut in half!_ It was a HeNe commercial
unit, probably a couple of mW...

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:07:59 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

In the physics laboratory, by any chance? :-)

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:07:59 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

In article , Martin Rich
writes
It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

Presumably those lessons took place in a laboratory, unless your
school had a rather unusual approach to physics teaching...

:-)

Martin

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

On 15 Oct 2005 16:38:24 -0700, wrote:

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

Yes Countdown does have some flaws.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

I understand that more stops will be equipped but not all routes and not
all stops even on routes that do have displays. I think this is a missed
opportunity to provide a step change in information quality.

We have Countdown screens in parts of Walthamstow but they are in the
most stupid places and certainly not at the busiest stops e.g.
Walthamstow Central or at stops which are just served by one service
where knowing your waiting time is more important than where you have 5
routes giving a 2-3 headway.

I expect they don't provide them at termini because the system has no
concept of the timetable so is unable to predict when a bus on a parking
stand is due to move to a stop to actually depart. It would be able to
cope with through services as they are moving and could thus trigger the
beacons. I'm not sure if the TfL GPS based system is going to be able to
track against the schedule or not - the system on Metroline's buses does
do this but that is only for the use of the driver.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:
I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.


In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Yep, this problem is always fun - a bus gets stuck, or follows a
diversion and drops off countdown. You get left waiting for it, only to
find its not coming.

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?

There are plans a foot for a GPS based system, I think Orange and
Metroline have been involved with something together.

Ta,

Q

Q wrote:
On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:
I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.


In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Yep, this problem is always fun - a bus gets stuck, or follows a
diversion and drops off countdown. You get left waiting for it, only to
find its not coming.

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?

There are plans a foot for a GPS based system, I think Orange and
Metroline have been involved with something together.

Siemens are in charge of the replacement Countdown system which uses GPS
on board the vehicles. It will be installed on all 8,000 buses (rising
to 10,000 buses by the time the replacement system is fully installed),
and information displays will be installed at 2,000 bus shelters (I'm
not sure if this includes existing ones or not). They will roll out
improved realtime info for web/mobile users too. Completion is due for
2008, with Siemens maintaining the system for ten years after that.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In article , Q wrote:
Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?

Can't say I know much about this, but if you use an 802.11 sniffer
you'll see probes for SSIDs such as 9WESTBOURNEPARK7 as a bus goes
past.

Paul

On 01/11/2005 08:43, wrote:
In article , Q wrote:

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?


Can't say I know much about this, but if you use an 802.11 sniffer
you'll see probes for SSIDs such as 9WESTBOURNEPARK7 as a bus goes
past.

Paul

That's handy to know.

Ill have to go and sit next to the one out on the Waterloo Rd at some
point with an 808.x sniffer and an RF sniffer.

I wondered if they where linked back to there band III radio system.

I see lots of SDM's being sent, and are unable to verify what's
generating them/where they going.

I know at one point Countdown screens used ISDN at the bus stops - you
used to see the NTE if ever the bottom of a shelter had been broken
(open) on fell off.

Q

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:18:28 +0000, Q ..@.. wrote:

On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:
I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.


In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Yep, this problem is always fun - a bus gets stuck, or follows a
diversion and drops off countdown. You get left waiting for it, only to
find its not coming.

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.
They're for bus priority at signals using wireless lan technolkogy.

Not part of Countdown.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk