Oyster is not ITSO-compliant and the DfT, who pay the TOC bills, won't
pay for non-ITSO-compliant kit. Figures.

See my comments elsewhere - this is all "smoke and mirrors" from the
TOCs.

Luckily, moves to make Oyster ITSO-compliant seem to be progressing at
last.

But only off the back of the E Money contract that TfL are letting which
will exploit the Oyster card holding base. There are ITSO compatible
cards and readers being trialled on a number of bus services in West
London at present. This is not funded by government but by TfL. The
equipment is also provided by the great evil, money grabbing Transys
company who, of course, have no interest in ITSO compatibility!

ITSO compatible equipment will be funded commercially off the back of a
TfL initiative. There is no need for TfL to be doing any of this. I'd
be interested to see if the TOCs will be prepared to "take a risk" about
co-operating with the wider scheme or whether they will still lock
themselves away in their little insular world of 7 year franchises
pretending the real world isn't outside.

The TOCs need to "grow up" and understand where their best interests
lie. Being awkward about a major ticketing initiative in the country's
capital city is not the way to go about things, IMO.

http://www.londonconnects.gov.uk/_db...rities_v6a.doc

is quite an interesting document listing the various smartcard
projects for the London boroughs, including possible integration with
Oystercard and ITSO. It also comments on the various smartcard
technologies. In particular, it says that MiFare cards are not
considered to be very secure, and would not be used in an e-money
application.

In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:

ITSO compatible equipment will be funded commercially off the back of
a TfL initiative. There is no need for TfL to be doing any of this. I'd
be interested to see if the TOCs will be prepared to "take a risk"
about co-operating with the wider scheme or whether they will still lock
themselves away in their little insular world of 7 year franchises
pretending the real world isn't outside.

The TOCs need to "grow up" and understand where their best interests
lie. Being awkward about a major ticketing initiative in the country's
capital city is not the way to go about things, IMO.

Given the length of train franchises these days I'm amazed that TOCs are willing to "take a risk" at all.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:

However neither you nor Roger Ford negotiated the IPR and licensing
provisions in the Prestige Contract. I did so I know what is possible
if only people had the will to do something about it.

Fair enough but doesn't that require the DfT to pay TfL's pound of flesh?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:02:56 +0000, Arthur Figgis
] wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:20:56 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

The government could make the TOCs adopt Oyster or any form of Smartcard
technology tomorrow if it was so minded.

But could it (short of passing a new law or paying all the costs), if
it (presumably) isn't in the franchise agreements? If the TOCs have
all reached the same conclusion not to fit it, might this not tell us
something about whether it is worth the TOCs' while to do it?

Well it does not appear to be in the franchise agreements or else it
would be announced when they are awarded. I think it is fair to say
that government pays a very hefty slice of any rail franchise's costs.
As the paymaster and the specifier of the service the government could
fix this overnight.

The problem with the TOCs is that they live or die by their cost and
revenue base. They have no assets. Therefore anything that they perceive
will raise their costs or damage their revenue base they will not touch.
TfL has offered to deal with the cost element - up to a point - while
the TOCs seem unable to decide if products like Pre-Pay are an useful
addition to their product range. Similarly they seem uninterested in the
additional flexibility that Smartcard could bring them alongside the
usage info generated via the card validation process. They want 100%
guarantees that they can't lose out - that isn't possible in my view and
therefore they have obviously concluded they aren't prepared to take the
risk of adopting the technology.

As I have said already the only person who loses is the customer.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"james007" wrote in message
roups.com...
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?

Have had a look ...

The logic that you "can't buy a travelcard if you only travel in zone 1"
isn't exactly true since the obvious outcome of the new fare structure is
that people who just travel in zone 1 will now have to buy a zones 1 and 2
travelcard, albeit at an increase of 20% on the previous year's zone 1 only
cost. Whether this is economic depends on your number of separate journeys
per day, for example I get a tube and bus in each direction every day so the
PAYG option is unlikely to be any cheaper.

P

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:50:55 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

Well it does not appear to be in the franchise agreements or else it
would be announced when they are awarded. I think it is fair to say
that government pays a very hefty slice of any rail franchise's costs.

Except those that pay a premium (eg Thameslink).

As the paymaster and the specifier of the service the government could
fix this overnight.

If the government was willing to pay. If it isn't, the TOCs can just
say "it's not in the contract, so if you want it, you pay for it".

The problem with the TOCs is that they live or die by their cost and
revenue base. They have no assets. Therefore anything that they perceive
will raise their costs or damage their revenue base they will not touch.
TfL has offered to deal with the cost element - up to a point -

Maybe the point is too low!

while
the TOCs seem unable to decide if products like Pre-Pay are an useful
addition to their product range. Similarly they seem uninterested in the
additional flexibility that Smartcard could bring them alongside the
usage info generated via the card validation process. They want 100%
guarantees that they can't lose out - that isn't possible in my view and
therefore they have obviously concluded they aren't prepared to take the
risk of adopting the technology.

But as you say, they have no assets, and no incentive to take risks. I
can see why TOCs could be concerned about getting themselves into a
situation where they are expected to pay to fit two new systems, when
their business models and franchise premia or subsidy profiles are
based on the existing systems only.

As I have said already the only person who loses is the customer.

I doubt whoever dreamed up the fragmentation of the railways even
considered them.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Barry Salter wrote:

snip

Fair enough. I stand corrected. I was thrown by the apparent surprise of
some of the staff at Victoria when they saw the 2006 "Fare Pal"
leaflets...

Come on, you don't expect that Southern actually communicates their
fares policy to their staff now do you!

I don't know if they've been corrected, but there were some woeful
Southern posters detailing all the new South London fares that were
full of inaccuracies (including a mention of the previously unknown
Cheap Day Travelcard). Whoever wrote it was very muddled, and whoever
proof read it was no member of MENSA. I was going to post about it here
but forgot about it until just now.

On 3 Jan 2006 09:53:14 -0800, "Richard Adamfi"
wrote:

Oyster Pre-Pay is only valid on the following National Rail lines:

Amersham to Marylebone
Finsbury Park to King's Cross/Moorgate
Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston (but not at Kilburn High Road/South
Hampstead)
Kentish Town to Moorgate/Elephant & Castle/London Bridge
Liverpool Street to Walthamstow Central
Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters (but not at intermediate stations)
Richmond to Gunnersbury
Stratford to Canning Town
Stratford to Liverpool Street
Upminster to Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street via Barking (but not at
Forest Gate/Maryland)
West Ruislip/South Ruislip to Marylebone (but not at intermediate
stations)

To help people understand this, wouldn't it be a good idea to include
all these lines in the Tube map?

TKD wrote:
Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what
the TFL website says:-

"During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you
will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard
price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will
refund the difference. "

I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say
Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the
equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is
that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on
Prepay?

Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some
National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard.

A capped Oyster card (i.e. an Oyster card being used in it's Pre Pay
guise which has reached a daily cap) is *not* a Day Travelcard - this
needs to be made crystal clear.

The fact that the capped fare is 50p less than the equivalent Day
Travelcard should help to make clear this distinction (the 50p
differential did not exist in 2005's fares). It also reflects that with
a capped Oyster card you get less - i.e. you can't use most National
Rail services.

The use of the word 'equivalent' when comparing Day Travelcards and
capped Oyster cards could be argued to be a bit misleading - the two
fares are comparable, but not equal.

Mizter T wrote:

Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some
National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard.

A capped Oyster card (i.e. an Oyster card being used in it's Pre Pay
guise which has reached a daily cap) is *not* a Day Travelcard - this
needs to be made crystal clear.

The fact that the capped fare is 50p less than the equivalent Day
Travelcard should help to make clear this distinction (the 50p
differential did not exist in 2005's fares).

But this could just as easily be the difference between payment methods,
trying to encourage people onto Oyster.

It also reflects that with
a capped Oyster card you get less - i.e. you can't use most National
Rail services.

50p is a pathetic discount, especially when there are bigger discounts for
straightforward fares on Oyster instead of cash.