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Freedom passes unchecked
Is it illegal for busdrivers to question passengers' disability (or
apparent lack thereof) when fit young men get on and use their orange Freedom Pass on London buses? I am gobsmacked how I have never seen any of the young men challenged ONCE over their card, which is blatantly in it's orange "Freedom Pass" wallet, and which shows "F'DOM PASS" or something like that on the display when swiped on the bus. I've been watching. Just yesterday, a fit athletic-looking young man jumped onto the bus, did not appear to have any learning difficulties and certainly no physical difficulties. He was listening to his iPod (so not deaf) and certainly didn't appear to be blind - although his trousers were half-way down his bum and his shoelaces were undone but that is apparently fashionable and not a sign of being mentally challenged, or blind for that matter, although it should be. Another young athletic man in his late teens came on the bus a couple of days ago.... Again, he was physically fit and appeared to be in all his senses, although admittedly he was wearing a Manchester Utd baseball cap, which may just have been a cunning disguise to make the bus driver think that he was indeed possibly retarded. In which case, it worked. What I want to know is, how come these things don't appear to be challenged, but other things (eg showing out-of-date travelcard, PAYG out of credit, 15 year old not having photocard, etc) do get checked. I'm not saying that these Freedom Passes are necessarily all fraudulent misappropriation of granny's card - and some of these young men may indeed have a disability of their own that is not immediately apparent - but surely drivers are allowed to check or ask, without fearing to cause offence in any way? Or is it that they are not allowed to do this, because of disability and equal opportunities or something. If so, this is wrong: OK, the able-bodied aren't asked about their ability so you may wonder why should the disabled be hassled. But the fact of the matter is, fraud is happening, and bus-drivers should not be forbidden (if this is the case) of asking why an apparently mentally and physically fit young man is using a freedom pass. Could someone explain more? |
Freedom passes unchecked
Tristán White wrote:
Is it illegal for busdrivers to question passengers' disability (or apparent lack thereof) when fit young men get on and use their orange Freedom Pass on London buses? I am gobsmacked how I have never seen any of the young men challenged ONCE over their card, which is blatantly in it's orange "Freedom Pass" wallet, and which shows "F'DOM PASS" or something like that on the display when swiped on the bus. I've been watching. [snip] But the fact of the matter is, fraud is happening, and bus-drivers should not be forbidden (if this is the case) of asking why an apparently mentally and physically fit young man is using a freedom pass. All the driver needs to do is to ask to see the photocard. The Freedom Pass is not valid unless the photocard is carried with it and bears the same name as the pass. Drivers should not, in my view, get involved in questioning passengers about their disabilities. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Richard J." wrote in news:3Mr4g.60971$wl.47175
@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: All the driver needs to do is to ask to see the photocard. The Freedom Pass is not valid unless the photocard is carried with it and bears the same name as the pass. Drivers should not, in my view, get involved in questioning passengers about their disabilities. But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale! Anyway, in the cases I've mentioned, the driver did not ask to see the photocard even. |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Tristán White" wrote in message . 109.145... "Richard J." wrote in news:3Mr4g.60971$wl.47175 @text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: All the driver needs to do is to ask to see the photocard. The Freedom Pass is not valid unless the photocard is carried with it and bears the same name as the pass. Drivers should not, in my view, get involved in questioning passengers about their disabilities. But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale! Anyway, in the cases I've mentioned, the driver did not ask to see the photocard even. -------------------------------------------------------------- What's in it for the driver?even if the passenger is fiddling his freedom pass,probably a smack in the face or worse,let Ken Nazi reinstate bus conductors. |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Scooter" Scooter @ Hooter wrote in message ... "Tristán White" wrote in message . 109.145... "Richard J." wrote in news:3Mr4g.60971$wl.47175 @text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: All the driver needs to do is to ask to see the photocard. The Freedom Pass is not valid unless the photocard is carried with it and bears the same name as the pass. Drivers should not, in my view, get involved in questioning passengers about their disabilities. But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale! Anyway, in the cases I've mentioned, the driver did not ask to see the photocard even. -------------------------------------------------------------- What's in it for the driver?even if the passenger is fiddling his freedom pass,probably a smack in the face or worse,let Ken Nazi reinstate bus conductors. |
Freedom passes unchecked
In message . 145,
Tristán White writes I'm not saying that these Freedom Passes are necessarily all fraudulent misappropriation of granny's card - and some of these young men may indeed have a disability of their own that is not immediately apparent That could legitimately include unfitness to drive a motor vehicle through a condition such as epilepsy (never apparent unless a fit occurs) or a severe learning disability. Individual councils have the power to grant freedom passes to other categories (drug or alcohol dependency is not supposed to be a criterion, but I think it has been used) although some, like Hackney, seem to have decided that they have been issued too freely in the past. None of that is to say that Freedom Passes may not being abused as much as Disabled Parking Permits, but it must be almost impossible for a driver to make any sort of check. Even the Freedom Pass website says that photocards must be produced, if required to revenue inspectors - it makes no mention of bus drivers. So, it should be up to the (now very rarely seen) bus inspector to follow-up any suspicious use of a freedom pass. -- Paul Terry |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Richard J." typed
All the driver needs to do is to ask to see the photocard. The Freedom Pass is not valid unless the photocard is carried with it and bears the same name as the pass. Drivers should not, in my view, get involved in questioning passengers about their disabilities. Agreed. The passholder's doctor has to fill a complex form to allow a Freedom Pass to be issued. Forgery or theft are beyond a driver's job to detect, but checking Photocards is simple enough. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Freedom passes unchecked
Tristán White wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in news:3Mr4g.60971$wl.47175 @text.news.blueyonder.co.uk: All the driver needs to do is to ask to see the photocard. The Freedom Pass is not valid unless the photocard is carried with it and bears the same name as the pass. Drivers should not, in my view, get involved in questioning passengers about their disabilities. But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale! Anyway, in the cases I've mentioned, the driver did not ask to see the photocard even. were you near enough to the driver to see if the passengers showed their photocard with their pass? Or just presuming because the driver didn't ask they didn't show one |
Freedom passes unchecked
In article . 145,
Tristán White wrote: But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? Because judging someone's age is within a drivers experience and competance; but judging someone's disability isn't. -- I don't play The Game - it's for five-year-olds with delusions of adulthood. |
Freedom passes unchecked
In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes Forgery or theft are beyond a driver's job to detect, but checking Photocards is simple enough. But do bus drivers have the power to demand to see a photocard? They are conventionally required to be shown to revenue inspectors and station staff - and, in some cases, when buying a ticket - but I haven't yet seen any evidence that drivers are empowered to demand to see them. I could be wrong (having not researched far), but the Oyster reader in a bus seems to be much like the one in a tube station - if the pass is valid it doesn't go on to ask to see a photocard before letting you through. -- Paul Terry |
Freedom passes unchecked
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:44:49 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote: Is it illegal for busdrivers to question passengers' disability (or apparent lack thereof) when fit young men get on and use their orange Freedom Pass on London buses? A friend of mine, 35 years old and apparently healthy looking, is living with HIV. This means he is officially disabled and he carries a Freedom Pass to which he is entitled. I don't suppose drivers would care to ask people who do not look disabled what their disability is. If a Freedom Pass is stolen, I believe that like an Oyster Card it can be cancelled. So the presumption is that the person is disabled and the pass is legal. -- Chris Hansen | chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com |http://www.hansenhome.demon.co.uk or |http://www.livejournal.com/users/chrishansenhome/ |
Freedom passes unchecked
On 2006-04-28, Tristán White wrote:
Is it illegal for busdrivers to question passengers' disability (or apparent lack thereof) when fit young men get on and use their orange Freedom Pass on London buses? snip Could someone explain more? I don't think a bus driver or conductor has either the knowledge or the time to carry out a thorough physical, medical, psychiatric, and psychological, examination of any passenger - and nowhere to do it in private, either ;)) At least in my borough, Freedom Passes are not handed out easily. I greatly appreciate mine, when I use it - and I believe that on those occasions when I'm well enough to use a bus or train then I show little or no obvious sign of any disability (at least not when I start my journey). A photocard has to match every Freedom Pass, although only by name. I have never been asked to show both at once, but the terms make it clear that both must 'be presented'. "Ticket checking staff" are empowered to retain any photocard or pass, its says on the back of the photocard, and on the back of the pass itself the non-transferability is emphasised. Presumably the ticket inspectors do check Freedom Passes along with all other ticket types. It would be interesting to know what the statistics are for fraudulent use of Freedom Passes. -- -- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~ |
Freedom passes unchecked
Tristán White wrote...
But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale! Do you have any evidence that fraud IS happening on a massive scale or are you just making assumptions? -- Martin Clark |
Freedom passes unchecked
Tristán White wrote: snip I am gobsmacked how I have never seen any of the young men challenged ONCE over their card, which is blatantly in it's orange "Freedom Pass" wallet, and which shows "F'DOM PASS" or something like that on the display when swiped on the bus. I've been watching. When all the old ladies get on the bus in front of me it says "Travelcard Z1-6D" not "F'DOM PASS". Are you sure you have been looking at the display? The only pass that seems to make a funny noise is the kids travel free pass. Seen as everyone you are moaning about is a "young man", could you possibly have confused their correctly owned kids travel free pass with a freedom pass? Or could the pass be the one given to all people who live with a bus driver? Just yesterday, a fit athletic-looking young man jumped onto the bus, did not appear to have any learning difficulties How do you know he didn't have learning difficulties? Not everyone with learning difficulties is short, wears glasses, dribbles and is confused! Dsylexia (spelt wrong, I am sure) counts as a learning difficulty but has no visible signs and certainly no physical difficulties. He was listening to his iPod (so not deaf) and certainly didn't appear to be blind - although his trousers were half-way down his bum and his shoelaces were undone but that is apparently fashionable and not a sign of being mentally challenged, or blind for that matter, although it should be. Another young athletic man in his late teens came on the bus a couple of days ago.... Again, he was physically fit and appeared to be in all his senses, although admittedly he was wearing a Manchester Utd baseball cap, which may just have been a cunning disguise to make the bus driver think that he was indeed possibly retarded. In which case, it worked. What I want to know is, how come these things don't appear to be challenged, but other things (eg showing out-of-date travelcard, PAYG out of credit, 15 year old not having photocard, etc) do get checked. Checking a freedom pass would be exaclty the same as checking someone with an annual travelcard is the one using it (so making people touch their pass on the reader, then show the photo to the driver). If the drivers check these all the time it slows boarding and oyster was a complete waste of time and money. So thats my theory why they don't check freedom pass photos. snip |
Freedom passes unchecked
Scooter wrote: What's in it for the driver?even if the passenger is fiddling his freedom pass,probably a smack in the face or worse,let Ken Nazi reinstate bus conductors. Ermm drivers are behind a glass/perspex parition - conductors weren't. So the driver would not get a smack round the face but a conductor could do. Therefore your argument fails |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Chris!" wrote in message oups.com... Scooter wrote: What's in it for the driver?even if the passenger is fiddling his freedom pass,probably a smack in the face or worse,let Ken Nazi reinstate bus conductors. Ermm drivers are behind a glass/perspex parition - conductors weren't. So the driver would not get a smack round the face but a conductor could do. Therefore your argument fails ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OK then, let's have the driver behind a perspex screen & a conductor /stroke guard in full body armour to protect the passengers from being murdered on the tops of buses as happened in the Holloway Road recently when a poor man was stabbed to death after he told some filthy piece of scum to stop throwing chips at his girfriend. |
Freedom passes unchecked
christine wrote in
: were you near enough to the driver to see if the passengers showed their photocard with their pass? Or just presuming because the driver didn't ask they didn't show one Yes, it was simply swiped through the plastic of the closed orange wallet. Yesterday, the youth in question was in the queue in front of me, which is how I saw it said "F'DOM PASS" or some such thing on the display. |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Chris!" wrote in
oups.com: When all the old ladies get on the bus in front of me it says "Travelcard Z1-6D" not "F'DOM PASS". Are you sure you have been looking at the display? Yes. I swear that on Thursday it said F'DOM PASS" or something like that. It stuck in my mind because I was surprised that the word FREEDOM in full wouldn't have fitted. The only pass that seems to make a funny noise is the kids travel free pass. Seen as everyone you are moaning about is a "young man", could you possibly have confused their correctly owned kids travel free pass with a freedom pass? No, this didn't make a funny noise, I was in the queue behind him on Thursday, saw the Freedom Pass wallet and read the display. Or could the pass be the one given to all people who live with a bus driver? No idea! How do you know he didn't have learning difficulties? Not everyone with learning difficulties is short, wears glasses, dribbles and is confused! Dsylexia (spelt wrong, I am sure) counts as a learning difficulty but has no visible signs Oh, true. But surely having dyslexia is not enough to qualify you for free travel on tubes and buses? I mean, surely you have to have a disability that will impair your ability to travel? Now I've got 11 years' experience working in a charity that has involvement with learning and communication difficulties, including dyslexia. I wouldn't have thought that dyslexia would qualify. I mean, if I sprained my ankle and had to be in crutches for the next week, would I get a freedom pass for a week? No. But I would probably deserve one (for that time, until my mobility is improved). Why should someone with dyslexia qualify or drug addiction qualify for free tube and bus travel. That would be crazy... the world upside-down..... Checking a freedom pass would be exaclty the same as checking someone with an annual travelcard is the one using it (so making people touch their pass on the reader, then show the photo to the driver). If the drivers check these all the time it slows boarding and oyster was a complete waste of time and money. So thats my theory why they don't check freedom pass photos. I guess that's a good theory. Saving time. It's what every sector of the community appears to be doing these days. My best mate's wife is pregnant at the moment. He wanted to know the sex of his child but they wouldn't tell him. He asked whether it had anything to do with something he read about people from a certain ethnic group who favour male progeny and may bring about an abortion if the child is found to be female (he reads the Mail... he probably got that story from there). In fact, the reason is nothing to do with that. It's because checking the sex of the foetus takes an extra 15 minutes, so certain NHS trusts no longer do these checks - even if there is time - because if they did it for one, they'd do it for everyone, and 15 minutes for every scan means there's not enough time in the day. So as you see, it's happening in all walks of life these days..... |
Freedom passes unchecked
Martin Clark wrote in :
Tristán White wrote... But they question passengers about their age! Why shouldn't they question them about their disability, if they appear to be completely of sane body and mind? It's not as though fraud is not happening on a massive scale! Do you have any evidence that fraud IS happening on a massive scale or are you just making assumptions? I didn't say fraud is happening on a massive scale with Freedom passes, but overall of course it is - it's common knowledge - whether it's people buying travelcards off touts, or not using the PAYG on the bendy-buses, it's in the news and on the newsgroups all the time. |
Freedom passes unchecked
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:56:06 -0500, Tristán White wrote in
45, seen in uk.transport.buses: I mean, surely you have to have a disability that will impair your ability to travel? Why not ask TfL what counts instead of assuming that only what you believe should count actually does? -- Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever. Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me. Demonstration of poor photography: http://www.rosspix.me.uk - updated with Czech photos AD: http://www.merciacharters.co.uk for European charters occasionally gripped by me |
Freedom passes unchecked
Ross typed
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:56:06 -0500, Tristán White wrote in 45, seen in uk.transport.buses: I mean, surely you have to have a disability that will impair your ability to travel? Why not ask TfL what counts instead of assuming that only what you believe should count actually does? or even look at the Freedom Pass website?? -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Freedom passes unchecked
In message 45,
Tristán White writes Oh, true. But surely having dyslexia is not enough to qualify you for free travel on tubes and buses? I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is. The information on the Freedom Pass website (and its link to the dft website) indicate that the learning disability needs to be quite seve "difficulty in learning new skills ... may be unable to cope independently" etc. -- Paul Terry |
Freedom passes unchecked
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:42:03 -0500, Tristán White wrote:
Yesterday, the youth in question was in the queue in front of me, which is how I saw it said "F'DOM PASS" or some such thing on the display. My daughters' uncle used to be a London bus driver, and he said that asking to check everyone's pass just gets you aggro. He said they can get on with a dry cleaning receipt as far as he's concerned. -- loobyloo Flat 978, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster http://loobynet.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Blantyre takes its name from the town in Scotland where David Livingstone was born in 1813. It is now famous for its redundant mines and the Clydeview Shopping Centre. Andrew O'Hagan |
Freedom passes unchecked
When a friend of mine was a conductor for London Northern/MTL London
Northern at HT in the late 90s, he said it seemed half the 30/40-plus male population of Camden was travelling on Freedom passes, allegedly for being being HIV+. At that time the condition was deemed to lead to death within around 10 years, so simply being diagonised HIV+ warranted being issued a Freedom Pass, regardless of whether the person had developed full-blown Aids or ever would do. I would assume any stolen Freedom passes would be used on the Underground, where there is next to no chance of any ID card inspection. |
Freedom passes unchecked
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Freedom passes unchecked
"
wrote in oups.com: SNIP I would certainly ask to see the pass and photocard of somebody without an obvious disability who I did not recognise. Having done this on numerous occasions (usually with the response "nobody else has ever asked to see it") I can honestly say that I have never experienced "agro". SNIP If they don't have the photocard on them, do you deny them travel, or has that never happened? |
Freedom passes unchecked
" wrote in message oups.com Martin Clark wrote: Tristán White wrote... Do you have any evidence that fraud IS happening on a massive scale or are you just making assumptions? -- Martin Clark In Milton Keynes disabled passes are issued by the Council following completion of a form by a Registered Medical Practioner. Most disabled people who use the buses tend to do so quite frequently, and are recognised by regular drivers. Irrelevant. When you get on a bus, you either (a) pay the fare, or (b) show a valid pass of some description. The only time it is acceptable for anyone to get on a bus without showing a pass is when they are (a) a company inspector on duty and in uniform, (b) a driver on his way to or from the garage and in uniform or (c) a police officer in uniform. (In this area, police are allowed free travel on or off duty, but if out of uniform they must show their warrant card). I would certainly ask to see the pass and photocard of somebody without an obvious disability who I did not recognise. Having done this on numerous occasions (usually with the response "nobody else has ever asked to see it") I can honestly say that I have never experienced "agro". It's very common here in the West Midlands. An awful lot of genuine pass holders seem to get very affronted and annoyed when anyone actually wants to *see* the things. Why..? What on earth do they think they're issued with them for..? To keep in their pockets or bags and not show anybody..?! I once had an amazing argument with a 90 year old man. He got on, flashed what looked like it might possibly be a plastic cover of a pass, contained within a tobacco tin, and headed up the bus to sit down. I called him back and asked, in what I considered at least, to be a reasonable tone of voice, to see his pass. "Can't you ****** well see I'm old..?!" came the reply..! "Yes, but that's not the point, I want to see your pass" says I. He then proceeded to launch into a vitriolic attack on bus drivers in general and me in particular, about how he'd fought in the war for his country and who the devil did I think I was to question him etc. I tried to explain that yes, I could see he was elderly, but that in itself did not entitle him to free travel, he had to produce a valid pass. How was I supposed to know he was a local resident..? I had never seen him before, so it wasn't as if he was a regular. It is interesting that the recent introduction of free travel after 0930 and at weekends has encouraged more drivers to expect passes to be produced. I well remember that in Crawley, where pensioners have travelled free for many years, the showing of passes was obligatory, to the point where nobody would dream of trying to board a bus without their pass. You can always tell when it's nearing 0930 around here by the swarm of pensioners around every bus stop ;-) For my part, I can honestly say that when I come to retire, the *last* place you'll find me at 0930 in the morning is at a bus stop ;-) In a couple of years time when the free travel thing goes countrywide, it remains to be seen whether the requirement to produce a valid pass will become universal. You mean that it *isn't* a requirement to produce a pass for travel in some places..? Where..? In spite of the foregoing, I am a Bus Driver and not a Policeman / Inspector / Council Official. Provided the pass looks genuine, it is not my place to question the holders entitlement. That is for others to do. Whilst I would refuse or withdraw pensioners pass presented by a 20 year old, a disabled pass may have been issued due to some condition that I am certainly not qualified to question. Therefore, the passenger would, subject to holding a valid permit, be allowed to travel without comment or question from me. Which is perfectly correct, but the requirement to actually *show* the pass is still there. Around here, that seems to be the factor that causes the most "agro"..! Ivor |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Tristán White" wrote in message . 109.145 " wrote in oups.com: SNIP I would certainly ask to see the pass and photocard of somebody without an obvious disability who I did not recognise. Having done this on numerous occasions (usually with the response "nobody else has ever asked to see it") I can honestly say that I have never experienced "agro". SNIP If they don't have the photocard on them, do you deny them travel, or has that never happened? Why would they be carrying a pass that required a photocard *without* that card..? Ivor |
Freedom passes unchecked
Do you have any evidence that fraud IS happening on a massive scale or are you just making assumptions? -- Martin Clark In Milton Keynes disabled passes are issued by the Council following completion of a form by a Registered Medical Practioner. Most disabled people who use the buses tend to do so quite frequently, and are recognised by regular drivers. Irrelevant. When you get on a bus, you either (a) pay the fare, or (b) show a valid pass of some description. The only time it is acceptable for anyone to get on a bus without showing a pass is when they are (a) a company inspector on duty and in uniform, (b) a driver on his way to or from the garage and in uniform or (c) a police officer in uniform. (In this area, police are allowed free travel on or off duty, but if out of uniform they must show their warrant card). or (d) An 11-13 year old in London. This group can travel unaccompanied for free without showing any kind of pass. |
Freedom passes unchecked
"Ivor Jones" typed
Why would they be carrying a pass that required a photocard *without* that card..? If they'd 'borrowed' it from a 'friend'. (See thread in uk.transport.london ...) I do *not* support fare evasion. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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