I loved my Oyster card, until today, where I found out that I pay
£145.20 for 5-zone my month card, where I can get the exact same card
(though a paper card with magnetic strip) from national Rail for
£137.95.

What kind of crap is that ?

wrote in message
ups.com...
I loved my Oyster card, until today, where I found out that I pay
£145.20 for 5-zone my month card, where I can get the exact same card
(though a paper card with magnetic strip) from national Rail for
£137.95.

What kind of crap is that ?

Yeah, the old 5% discount if you buy from your rail station? I've told
friends of mine who started buying their travelcards online from oyster.com
that they're losing their 5% discount so they've gone back to paper tickets
and now save money. I see increasing numbers of people using Oysters at my
station as well (Bexley) who must also be losing their discount.

Note the TfL adverts never mention "rail" (always Bus, Tuber, DLR, tram
etc), but of course most people will assume Oyster's cheaper for rail as
well when it's not...

Side note: I guess when NR stations in the travelcard zones get Oyster
machines we may finally get discounted season tickets on Oyster? Oh yeah,
but that will probably be coupled with us losing our rail-only season ticket
options because it's "too complicated" to have these different ticket types
(and having passengers not contribute to TfL)... hmmm.

Second side note: Lewisham station (one of very few Southeastern stations)
claims to issue Oysters. Does that mean people in Lewisham can buy Zonal
travelcards with a 5% performance discount on Oyster?

Nick
Bexley, Kent

Nick wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
I loved my Oyster card, until today, where I found out that I pay
£145.20 for 5-zone my month card, where I can get the exact same card
(though a paper card with magnetic strip) from national Rail for
£137.95.

What kind of crap is that ?

Yeah, the old 5% discount if you buy from your rail station? I've told
friends of mine who started buying their travelcards online from oyster.com
that they're losing their 5% discount so they've gone back to paper tickets
and now save money. I see increasing numbers of people using Oysters at my
station as well (Bexley) who must also be losing their discount.

The discount is part of the Passengers Charter - it occurs *if* and
only if the Train Operating Company (TOC) you buy your ticket from
fails to perform well enough over the past quarter (I think). I believe
a discount of 10% is applied if they're really poor.

The Passengers Charter is implemented differently on London Underground
- you have to apply for a per-delay compensation. They don't offer
discounts on season tickets as teh TOCs do. Also, 'one railway' has
changed how they recompense passengers - if you're delayed on their
trains you must apply for a per-delay compensation, and there's no
discount on season tickets if there's been poor performance.

So it's not crap - it's just a result of the fact that (most) National
Rail stations don't issue Travelcards on Oyster. This will change in a
few years time.


Note the TfL adverts never mention "rail" (always Bus, Tuber, DLR, tram
etc), but of course most people will assume Oyster's cheaper for rail as
well when it's not...

Side note: I guess when NR stations in the travelcard zones get Oyster
machines we may finally get discounted season tickets on Oyster? Oh yeah,
but that will probably be coupled with us losing our rail-only season ticket
options because it's "too complicated" to have these different ticket types
(and having passengers not contribute to TfL)... hmmm.

As yet there's no public information on how Oyster will be integrated
into the National Rail fares scheme in London, but it does appear that
TfL will have a far larger say in how fares are set - it seems likely
that rail fares will become zonal.

However I can forsee a big stink should TfL try and remove rail-only
season tickets, not least because the 'equivalent' zonal Travelcard
would cost significantly more. I reckon that rail-only seasons might
well survive.


Second side note: Lewisham station (one of very few Southeastern stations)
claims to issue Oysters. Does that mean people in Lewisham can buy Zonal
travelcards with a 5% performance discount on Oyster?

Lewisham station has a credit/debit card only Queuebuster touchscreen
ticket machine for topping-up Oyster, or loading Travelcards to go on
an Oyster card. I don't believe it applies the Passenger Charter
discount to Travelcards. The Southeastern ticket office at Lewisham
doesn't deal with Oyster at all.

New Cross is I believe the only Southeastern station to issue Oyster
cards. Likewise New Cross Gate, a Southern station, issues them, as
does Surbiton, a South West Trains station.

Basically if commuters want the Passengers Charter discount they should
buy paper Travelcards from National Rail stations.

One thing to bear in mind is that if passengers are travelling out of
their zones on the Underground - say to Heathrow - then an Oyster
loaded with a Travelcard will automatically deduct the correct excess
fare (or ticket extension, depending upon your preferred terminology).
For most people this will probably not be an issue, but some may prefer
to have this facility and lose out on the 5% discount.

On 11 Aug 2006 08:50:25 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Basically if commuters want the Passengers Charter discount they should
buy paper Travelcards from National Rail stations.

SWT offer the charter discount on renewals of Travelcards purchased on
Oyster, provided you buy them from one of the SWT-run stations that
sells them. (This is detailed somewhere on their website.) Reportedly,
Richmond will only sell Travelcards on Oyster that include Zone 4. (I
don't know about Wimbledon.)

There are stations run by several other TOCs that are listed in the
TfL fares leaflet as selling Oyster cards (Southeastern, Southern,
FGWL, FCC, Silverlink, Chiltern, c2c, 'one'), but there have been no
reports of them offering the charter discount on Travelcards on
Oyster. You might like to check their websites, though.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
Nick wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
I loved my Oyster card, until today, where I found out that I pay
£145.20 for 5-zone my month card, where I can get the exact same card
(though a paper card with magnetic strip) from national Rail for
£137.95.

What kind of crap is that ?

Yeah, the old 5% discount if you buy from your rail station? I've told
friends of mine who started buying their travelcards online from
oyster.com
that they're losing their 5% discount so they've gone back to paper
tickets
and now save money. I see increasing numbers of people using Oysters at
my
station as well (Bexley) who must also be losing their discount.

The discount is part of the Passengers Charter - it occurs *if* and
only if the Train Operating Company (TOC) you buy your ticket from
fails to perform well enough over the past quarter (I think). I believe
a discount of 10% is applied if they're really poor.

On Southeastern I think it's 5% if punctuality is below target and another
5% if the number of cancellations is above a certain theshold. We've had
our 10% phase here in Southeastern territory, but not for a while; currenly
just 5% in their "metro" area.

The Passengers Charter is implemented differently on London Underground
- you have to apply for a per-delay compensation. They don't offer
discounts on season tickets as teh TOCs do. Also, 'one railway' has
changed how they recompense passengers - if you're delayed on their
trains you must apply for a per-delay compensation, and there's no
discount on season tickets if there's been poor performance.

Yes, this 5% or whatever discount on renewals is a nasty way of giving
compensation I think. Maybe administratively cheap to operate but a pain
when you take a few weeks off/buy a few weeklies to make up an odd period
near a holiday, then go to renew and miss the discount period (28 days?).
Similarly if you stop using monthlies altogether, you will never be
compensated for that last month of poor performance. And of course if you
switch from using a rail-only monthly to a Travelcard or vice-verse it
counts as a different type of ticket so no discount.

So it's not crap - it's just a result of the fact that (most) National
Rail stations don't issue Travelcards on Oyster. This will change in a
few years time.

It *is* crap that many people in Greater London using poor-perfomance TOC
services are paying between 5.3 and 11% more than need to because they're
using TCs on Oyster thanks to lots of expensive TfL advertising which is
somewhat misleasing to a southern Greater London rail-dominated audience.
For a Z1-6 Travelcard bought monthly that's £100 more per year for an Oyster
user at my station, Bexley in Zone 6. If the 10% discount was in operation
of course, it would be around £210 more per year. These are not trivial
amounts.

snip

As yet there's no public information on how Oyster will be integrated
into the National Rail fares scheme in London, but it does appear that
TfL will have a far larger say in how fares are set - it seems likely
that rail fares will become zonal.

They will adopt the tube model for zonal fares (to make it "simple"), which
of course means many CDR-equivalent journies will substantially increase.

However I can forsee a big stink should TfL try and remove rail-only
season tickets, not least because the 'equivalent' zonal Travelcard
would cost significantly more. I reckon that rail-only seasons might
well survive.

I don't think they will. Putting up the congestion charge causes a stink
but Ken relishes it; phasing out the Zone 1 season ticket and forcing people
to buy a Zone1&2 caused a stink but hell it still happened. Most of the
media will no doubt just cut and paste the TfL PR spin about "simplified"
ticketing anyway if it happens and it'll only be those of us on the
outskirts of TfL territory that get whacked with bigger increases - where
they probably don't really care too much about.

Second side note: Lewisham station (one of very few Southeastern
stations)
claims to issue Oysters. Does that mean people in Lewisham can buy
Zonal
travelcards with a 5% performance discount on Oyster?

Lewisham station has a credit/debit card only Queuebuster touchscreen
ticket machine for topping-up Oyster, or loading Travelcards to go on
an Oyster card. I don't believe it applies the Passenger Charter
discount to Travelcards. The Southeastern ticket office at Lewisham
doesn't deal with Oyster at all.

Ah right, interesting to know.

New Cross is I believe the only Southeastern station to issue Oyster
cards. Likewise New Cross Gate, a Southern station, issues them, as
does Surbiton, a South West Trains station.

Basically if commuters want the Passengers Charter discount they should
buy paper Travelcards from National Rail stations.

Yes, absolutely. Why isn't this made more clear? Even in smaller writing
on the many TfL glossy publications about Oyster, but yet nothing.

One thing to bear in mind is that if passengers are travelling out of
their zones on the Underground - say to Heathrow - then an Oyster
loaded with a Travelcard will automatically deduct the correct excess
fare (or ticket extension, depending upon your preferred terminology).
For most people this will probably not be an issue, but some may prefer
to have this facility and lose out on the 5% discount.

I can't think of anyone I know who'd give up their 5% discount for that, but
you never know ;-)

Nick
Bexley, Kent

"Nick" wrote in message
. uk...

snip

It *is* crap that many people in Greater London using poor-perfomance TOC
services are paying between 5.3 and 11% more than need to because they're
using TCs on Oyster thanks to lots of expensive TfL advertising which is
somewhat misleasing to a southern Greater London rail-dominated audience.
For a Z1-6 Travelcard bought monthly that's £100 more per year for an
Oyster user at my station, Bexley in Zone 6. If the 10% discount was in
operation of course, it would be around £210 more per year. These are not
trivial amounts.

snip

You can tell it's late - that should of course be "around £100" and "around
£200".

Nick
Bexley, Kent

Nick wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message
oups.com...
Nick wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
I loved my Oyster card, until today, where I found out that I pay
£145.20 for 5-zone my month card, where I can get the exact same card
(though a paper card with magnetic strip) from national Rail for
£137.95.

What kind of crap is that ?

Yeah, the old 5% discount if you buy from your rail station? I've told
friends of mine who started buying their travelcards online from
oyster.com
that they're losing their 5% discount so they've gone back to paper
tickets
and now save money. I see increasing numbers of people using Oysters at
my
station as well (Bexley) who must also be losing their discount.

The discount is part of the Passengers Charter - it occurs *if* and
only if the Train Operating Company (TOC) you buy your ticket from
fails to perform well enough over the past quarter (I think). I believe
a discount of 10% is applied if they're really poor.

On Southeastern I think it's 5% if punctuality is below target and another
5% if the number of cancellations is above a certain theshold. We've had
our 10% phase here in Southeastern territory, but not for a while; currenly
just 5% in their "metro" area.

The Passengers Charter is implemented differently on London Underground
- you have to apply for a per-delay compensation. They don't offer
discounts on season tickets as teh TOCs do. Also, 'one railway' has
changed how they recompense passengers - if you're delayed on their
trains you must apply for a per-delay compensation, and there's no
discount on season tickets if there's been poor performance.

Yes, this 5% or whatever discount on renewals is a nasty way of giving
compensation I think. Maybe administratively cheap to operate but a pain
when you take a few weeks off/buy a few weeklies to make up an odd period
near a holiday, then go to renew and miss the discount period (28 days?).
Similarly if you stop using monthlies altogether, you will never be
compensated for that last month of poor performance. And of course if you
switch from using a rail-only monthly to a Travelcard or vice-verse it
counts as a different type of ticket so no discount.

So it's not crap - it's just a result of the fact that (most) National
Rail stations don't issue Travelcards on Oyster. This will change in a
few years time.

It *is* crap that many people in Greater London using poor-perfomance TOC
services are paying between 5.3 and 11% more than need to because they're
using TCs on Oyster thanks to lots of expensive TfL advertising which is
somewhat misleasing to a southern Greater London rail-dominated audience.
For a Z1-6 Travelcard bought monthly that's £100 more per year for an Oyster
user at my station, Bexley in Zone 6. If the 10% discount was in operation
of course, it would be around £210 more per year. These are not trivial
amounts.

snip

As yet there's no public information on how Oyster will be integrated
into the National Rail fares scheme in London, but it does appear that
TfL will have a far larger say in how fares are set - it seems likely
that rail fares will become zonal.

They will adopt the tube model for zonal fares (to make it "simple"), which
of course means many CDR-equivalent journies will substantially increase.

However I can forsee a big stink should TfL try and remove rail-only
season tickets, not least because the 'equivalent' zonal Travelcard
would cost significantly more. I reckon that rail-only seasons might
well survive.

I don't think they will. Putting up the congestion charge causes a stink
but Ken relishes it; phasing out the Zone 1 season ticket and forcing people
to buy a Zone1&2 caused a stink but hell it still happened. Most of the
media will no doubt just cut and paste the TfL PR spin about "simplified"
ticketing anyway if it happens and it'll only be those of us on the
outskirts of TfL territory that get whacked with bigger increases - where
they probably don't really care too much about.

Second side note: Lewisham station (one of very few Southeastern
stations)
claims to issue Oysters. Does that mean people in Lewisham can buy
Zonal
travelcards with a 5% performance discount on Oyster?

Lewisham station has a credit/debit card only Queuebuster touchscreen
ticket machine for topping-up Oyster, or loading Travelcards to go on
an Oyster card. I don't believe it applies the Passenger Charter
discount to Travelcards. The Southeastern ticket office at Lewisham
doesn't deal with Oyster at all.

Ah right, interesting to know.

New Cross is I believe the only Southeastern station to issue Oyster
cards. Likewise New Cross Gate, a Southern station, issues them, as
does Surbiton, a South West Trains station.

Basically if commuters want the Passengers Charter discount they should
buy paper Travelcards from National Rail stations.

Yes, absolutely. Why isn't this made more clear? Even in smaller writing
on the many TfL glossy publications about Oyster, but yet nothing.

One thing to bear in mind is that if passengers are travelling out of
their zones on the Underground - say to Heathrow - then an Oyster
loaded with a Travelcard will automatically deduct the correct excess
fare (or ticket extension, depending upon your preferred terminology).
For most people this will probably not be an issue, but some may prefer
to have this facility and lose out on the 5% discount.

I can't think of anyone I know who'd give up their 5% discount for that, but
you never know ;-)



Don't forget that, whatever your motive or necessity for having a paper
travelcard, you will be penalised whenever you go beyond your zones on
the Underground. The extension will be £3 instead of £1 that you
could get on Oyster.

Alternatively, if you keep some PAYG for those situations, you will
still pay for the full journey on the Underground, despite being
covered for most of it with your travelcard, unless you get off, go up
the escalator, touch out, go back down the escalator again and wait for
another train. Insane and outrageous.

Is there anything stopping one going to a station of the
worst-performing TOC (not that I know what that is), and getting a
zonal season ticket, even if one doesn't travel with that TOC?

SamB wrote:

Is there anything stopping one going to a station of the
worst-performing TOC (not that I know what that is), and getting a
zonal season ticket, even if one doesn't travel with that TOC?

As far as I'm aware, there's no impediment that prevents one from so
doing, and indeed I believe some savvy passengers do actually take
advantage of this.

Bear in mind that it only applies to renewals of monthly or longer
season tickets.

Also I'm not an expert on this - so anyone who is please do correct me
- but I understand that the charter discounts are calculated according
to performance on particular routes/groups of routes as opposed to
across the TOC (and a season ticket will thus 'belong' in one route
group or the other).

I also think it's pretty uncommon for a TOC to have to offer a 10%
charter discount for very poor performance, but the 5% is quite common.
Of course it may be the case that the TOC performs better the next
quarter, so they no longer have to offer a charter discount. However
they may (and often do) slip back and have to start offering the
charter discounts again.