Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
The worst I've found is on sub-urban commuter routes where very few of the
regular stock have first class but occasionally one gets put on. Naturally
hardly anyone's got a first class ticket and the result is either have
everyone squeeze into standard class like sardines or some have to go in
first.

Surely first class can't be valid in those circumstances? It MUST be
declassified as nobody would ever mark a service as having first class
if passengers couldn't always use it.

This is why services that are operated by 313s on FCC GN won't have
first class, even though a lot of the time the Letchworth/Royston rush
hour trains will use a 317 (and also some services returning at the end
of rush hour from WGC in the morning to KGX and then back to the
depot). The timetable clearly shows them as being standard class only.

Jonathan

Roland Perry wrote:
Although MML at weekends have been known to announce the availability of
their "Weekend First" upgrades, on the train, and collect the money
while doing the ticket check.

One did that when we went to Chelmsford for V-festival. ISTR it wasn't
much either.

If the train is a service that always has a ticket check (like most
Inter-city services), I'd expect there to be a good chance I could
upgrade as fare evasion is, in theory, impossible.

However, on a suburban commuter route where the ticket checking is
usually at the station, it's obvious it would be abused. Therefore the
only logical solution is to issue a penalty fare, or introduce some
clever, and expensive, 'ticket by SMS' option that allows you to send a
text to upgrade or buy a ticket and get a reference number that can be
shown and confirmed - proving you did so when you boarded and not one
second before the RPI turned up! Seems like a lot of effort though!

Jonathan

Matt Wheeler wrote:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station.

I've been on a couple of services where I could genuinely say that it
was full (all seats). This is more likely in the rush hour, where
people will ask passengers to move bags and coats off otherwise empty
seats.

At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

As for half the train being empty, that's also true at times.

Jonathan

In message , at 09:50:13 on
Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Matt Wheeler remarked:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station

An issue along similar lines: what about vestibules. I've often noticed
people getting on a MML Meridian, and finding themselves in the
vestibule between two First Class coaches (perhaps the Meridians aren't
marked very well).

They seem reluctant to walk through the train and therefore stand in the
vestibule. Is this allowed? (I have an idea that standing in a FC
*corridor* isn't allowed, but I'm no so sure about vestibules). The
grippers don't seem to challenge them (although as far as I can see they
rarely challenge anyone northbound between Leicester and Nottingham).
--
Roland Perry

Jonathan Morris wrote:

Matt Wheeler wrote:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station.

I've been on a couple of services where I could genuinely say that it
was full (all seats). This is more likely in the rush hour, where
people will ask passengers to move bags and coats off otherwise empty
seats.

You're a lucky man if you've only been on a couple of trains where
there are no available seats - it's not an unusual situation in the
rush hour!


At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

People can be pathetic wilting violets in such situations - as you say
just ask!

In message .com, at
05:10:01 on Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Jonathan Morris
remarked:
At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

I often seem to get a reservation in seat 1 of Meridians. This is the
corner seat at the end of the coach. It's also the seat that seems to be
a prime target for occasional travellers to slump into (first they see
when they get on board), complete with half a dozen assorted bags.

The problem when asking them to move is answering the inevitable
question "so where are my bags supposed to go"? There never seems to be
a Meridian Train Designer handy when you need to refer people to them!
--
Roland Perry

In message , Roland Perry
writes
In message .com, at
05:10:01 on Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Jonathan Morris
remarked:
At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

I often seem to get a reservation in seat 1 of Meridians. This is the
corner seat at the end of the coach. It's also the seat that seems to
be a prime target for occasional travellers to slump into (first they
see when they get on board), complete with half a dozen assorted bags.

The problem when asking them to move is answering the inevitable
question "so where are my bags supposed to go"? There never seems to be
a Meridian Train Designer handy when you need to refer people to them!
Seats should not be occupied by bags, I have frequently found my
reserved seat to be occupied by a bag belonging to The woman in the next
seat, They get asked to remove IT.
--
martyn dawe

In message , at 13:49:30 on Sun,
21 Jan 2007, martyn dawe remarked:
The problem when asking them to move is answering the inevitable
question "so where are my bags supposed to go"? There never seems to
be a Meridian Train Designer handy when you need to refer people to them!
Seats should not be occupied by bags,

I know that, and you know that (and so do most of the people posting
here).

I have frequently found my reserved seat to be occupied by a bag
belonging to The woman in the next seat, They get asked to remove IT.

And what if "it" is three or four carrier bags, a handbag and a
rucksack? The people who are struggling with loads like this are not
often in the best of moods, and seem to want to know where else they are
expected to put all their luggage.

I am not particularly interested in spending the next two hours wedged
next to someone whose nose has been put out of joint by decisions made
long ago by a Meridian Designer, but blames me.
--
Roland Perry

Mizter T wrote:
You're a lucky man if you've only been on a couple of trains where
there are no available seats - it's not an unusual situation in the
rush hour!

Depends on the route, obviously. Some morning trains will be packed,
but others start from just one station back and are pretty empty. By
the time it gets to Finsbury Park, it's pretty packed but not
ridiculously so.

People can be pathetic wilting violets in such situations - as you say
just ask!

I can sort of understand a family or group considering a train to be
full when you can't get seats together, but few trains (bar the rush
hour) are literally packed as people say (such as those who moan to the
media about how our trains are always overcrowded). It's just that you
may have to split up to get seated. In some rare instances, people will
volunteer to move so people can sit together. I think even I might be a
little too shy to ask people to swap seats!

Jonathan

A long time ago (1984 ish) I was on a First Class Only service from
Crewe I seem to rembember. Do such things still exist. The RPI let me of
on the grounds that it was the only train to get me to where I was going
but he said I should technically have not got on it at all!

mysteryflyer