Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season
Ticket?

ISTR that this is (or was) possible, and the charge is the difference
between the Standard Open/Day Single and First Open/Day Single fares,
depending on which is available for that journey (rarely will you find
both). It has to be paid before boarding if there is a facility to do
so, which is a bit of a pain because the only reason I would ever do it
is if I saw Standard to be so busy that it would be seriously
unpleasant to travel therein.

Neil

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season
Ticket?

ISTR that this is (or was) possible, and the charge is the difference
between the Standard Open/Day Single and First Open/Day Single fares,
depending on which is available for that journey (rarely will you find
both). It has to be paid before boarding if there is a facility to do
so, which is a bit of a pain because the only reason I would ever do it
is if I saw Standard to be so busy that it would be seriously
unpleasant to travel therein.

The context was paying on board, not upgrading in advance, which you
address, though your qualification "if there is a facility for doing so"
isn't specifically referred to in :

http://nationalrail.co.uk/system/gal...misc/NRCOC.pdf
[Condition 39]

which simply says that if you haven't done it an advance you are treated as
having no ticket.

In answer to the question "why", I can only assume it's a response to the
perceived risk of abuse.

--
Walter Mann

On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 at 09:20:14AM -0800, Ianigsy wrote:

To my mind there's a difference between first class on a long-distance
service, which is primarily aimed at the business traveller who wants
to/is expected to work on the train and doesn't want any distractions,

That clearly isn't the reason it exists. If it was, they'd not sell
child tickets, nor would they sell tickets to football teams.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

"There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza."
"WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THERE IS A HOLE IN YOUR BUCKET?"

David Cantrell wrote:

That clearly isn't the reason it exists. If it was, they'd not sell
child tickets, nor would they sell tickets to football teams.

It isn't the *only* reason, but it is a significant reason, and the
price point (very high) is typically aimed at that market, with the
cheaper tickets existing as ever to fill spare seats.

Indeed, the First Class seats on the WCML Desiros have what feels like
a tighter pitch than the Standard ones (because the seat backs are
thicker, but hey...) and are still 2+2 - the clear purpose here is that
it's a choice between the Standard scrum (which isn't all that bad on
the WCML commuter runs) and a more relaxed First Class journey, while
the seats are usually substantially better on InterCity type routes.

Neil

On 22 Jan 2007 03:58:27 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's
mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet
sites.


One such website is this one:
http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/grov_pk1.htm

I've just read it with great interest.

I was particularly amused by this bit:
"As soon as the last door closes, the senior railman gives me the right
away, I give a final quick check up and down the train and I give two
rings on the bell.
Unlike some drivers, who seem to go to sleep in their cabs, Fred starts
off immediately."

When time is of the essence it seems most bizarre that some drivers
might aren't on the ball!

We worked under far less time pressure than is the case nowadays.
(Minor) late running was accepted; early running, even by a few seconds,
wasn't.

May I, as a non-expert member of Joe Public, ask a few spectacularly
basic questions...

When you speak of "railmen", as in the above quote and elsewhere in the
piece, this appears to specifically relate to station staff?

Railman, Leading Railman and Senior Railman were official grades. In the
olden days, they would have been called Porters or Ticket Collectors.
The Railman grades were introduced to give flexibility - I don't know
when. Most station staff would be Leading Railmen. Senior Railman was
a fairly responsible job, and at the London Terminals, would be
responsible for dispatching trains.


I also found the use of the term "dummy" when referring to ground
signals a bizarre choice of word. As you can probably gather I don't
really know an awful lot about railway signalling, but calling any
signal a dummy signal suggests to my uneducated ears that it is a fake
signal and doesn't actually do anything! This obviously isn't the case
so I just wonder where the term came from?

I have no idea where it comes from - a "dummy" was officially called a
subsidiary signal. Even different parts of the railway had (and probably
still do have) their own local terms. But you learnt the local term in
training and it stuck. Things move slowly on the railways. Even in the
1980s on what was at that time the South Eastern Division of British
Rail, we talked about the "Eastern" lines and the "Chatham" lines, from
the South Eastern Railway and London, Chatham & Dover Railway, which
combined in 1899.

Lastly I was most amused to read the bit about the Americans getting
angry that you couldn't arrange to hold the Paddington train, on which
they had reserved seats, for them - it's just so ridiculous that I
needn't say anything more!

Stuff like that wasn't uncommon - and is quite possibly even worse
nowadays.

--
Bill Hayles
http://www.rossrail.com

Andrea ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :

I travelled First Class with FCC from Farringdon to Luton Airport
yesterday evening.

Got into the rear compartment to find that it was almost full but I got
the last seat (Standard was full). Just after we departed, two FCC
guys (presumably RPIs) came into the compartment and asked to view all
First Clas tickets. At this point, several people tried to make for
the door but were prevented from doing so. In the end, 7 people were
penalty fared between Farringdon and West Hampstead Thameslink for
sitting in First with a Standard ticket. They all got off at West
Hampstead, where 3 more people came into the compartment. Immediately,
the RPIs came in and all 3 got £20 penalty fare notices. Another 2
boarded at Harpenden - one had a First Class ticket and the other was
penalty fared. A real field day for these RPIs!

I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket
checks. However, I've noticed that FCC RPIs are far more common now
than previously on Thameslink, where there were hardly any checks at
all north of the Thames.

I don't quite understand. Are you claiming that the RPIs should not have
done so...?

Did you get a penalty fare, since you seem to be claiming that you sat in
first class with a standard class ticket?

On 22 Jan 2007 01:22:22 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:

I'm sure that the vestibules at the end of First class coaches don't
actually fall under the aegis of being FC accommodation themselves.

I've been moved out of the corridor alongside the first class
compartments on a CIG by the ticket collector, as the corridor was for
first class passengers to stand in.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

In message . com, Bill
Harris writes
As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

In the 1960s I travelled a lot using a rail warrant (Second Class in
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between
first and second fares. I was in the Merchant Navy and the extra
luggage allowance was significant, we had to be prepaered to be away
for up to a year and able to survive from Arctic cold to Tropical heat.

Bill Harris

Hi Bill,
Which mob were you with? Take it you saw the light eventually and got a
proper job ashore?
I'm still sailing, did my time (and then some) with BPTC now with Andrew
Weirs - for my sins!
--
James Christie