On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Didnt realise the electronic information boards were around in the
1950's

They weren't. The 1959 refers to the age of the train shown in the
picture. 1959 stock ran on the Northern Line together with 1938
(for a while), 1960 (only a couple of trains) and 1972 Mk1.

That's 1962 not 1960 stock. Earlier the Northern Line had 1972 MkII stock
too before it replaced the Bakerloo's 1938 stock.

Sorry Colin - I meant 1956 stock - the ones with the rather odd 5
headlamps.

I should know better than to be imprecise on matters such as rolling
stock!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 4 Feb 2007 15:52:48 -0800, "MIG" wrote:

On Feb 4, 11:09 pm, wrote:

This is a good website just looking at the other pics

http://richardrandall.fotopic.net/p15383925.html

what line did this train used to be on? Its now used on the IOW

I would assume that it was on the Bakerloo immediately before, but the
most serviceable 1938 stock from the Northern and Bakerloo was
probably gathered on the Bakerloo before withdrawal, so it could have
been around a bit.

I'm probably going to get this completely wrong but the 1938 stock was
used primarily on the Bakerloo Line in the 1980s. I recall travelling on
the last unit in service and catching it at Stonebridge Park. Now
although they were supposed to be withdrawn from all LU use ISTR that a
few trains made it across to the Northern Line and ran there for a
further while until other stock could be spared - 62 stock from the
Central??

I think 38 stock left the Northern before the fleet was transferred to
Alstom control as part of the Northern Line PFI deal. 1938 stock was
then transferred to the Isle of Wight to replace pre-38 stock (1923
stock?) that was running on the line.

Now someone can come and correct the above ...... ;-)
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Feb 5, 7:08 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On 4 Feb 2007 15:52:48 -0800, "MIG" wrote:

On Feb 4, 11:09 pm, wrote:
This is a good website just looking at the other pics

http://richardrandall.fotopic.net/p15383925.html

what line did this train used to be on? Its now used on the IOW

I would assume that it was on the Bakerloo immediately before, but the
most serviceable 1938 stock from the Northern and Bakerloo was
probably gathered on the Bakerloo before withdrawal, so it could have
been around a bit.

I'm probably going to get this completely wrong but the 1938 stock was
used primarily on the Bakerloo Line in the 1980s. I recall travelling on
the last unit in service and catching it at Stonebridge Park. Now
although they were supposed to be withdrawn from all LU use ISTR that a
few trains made it across to the Northern Line and ran there for a
further while until other stock could be spared - 62 stock from the
Central??

I think 38 stock left the Northern before the fleet was transferred to
Alstom control as part of the Northern Line PFI deal. 1938 stock was
then transferred to the Isle of Wight to replace pre-38 stock (1923
stock?) that was running on the line.

Now someone can come and correct the above ...... ;-)


Ah, you mean that the stuff that was revived for the Northern was the
stuff that went to the IOW? By then it had all been withdrawn from
the Bakerloo, so was probably ex-Bakerloo rather than ex-Northern
(originally having all left the Northern by about 1977).

But I don't know if the timing is right for that. I thought the IOW
had got its trains straight from the Bakerloo much earlier.

On 5 Feb, 19:24, "MIG" wrote:
On Feb 5, 7:08 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
I'm probably going to get this completely wrong but the 1938 stock was
used primarily on the Bakerloo Line in the 1980s. I recall travelling on
the last unit in service and catching it at Stonebridge Park. Now
although they were supposed to be withdrawn from all LU use ISTR that a
few trains made it across to the Northern Line and ran there for a
further while until other stock could be spared - 62 stock from the
Central??

I think 38 stock left the Northern before the fleet was transferred to
Alstom control as part of the Northern Line PFI deal. 1938 stock was
then transferred to the Isle of Wight to replace pre-38 stock (1923
stock?) that was running on the line.

Now someone can come and correct the above ...... ;-)

Ah, you mean that the stuff that was revived for the Northern was the
stuff that went to the IOW? By then it had all been withdrawn from
the Bakerloo, so was probably ex-Bakerloo rather than ex-Northern
(originally having all left the Northern by about 1977).

But I don't know if the timing is right for that. I thought the IOW
had got its trains straight from the Bakerloo much earlier.- Hide quoted text -

From what I remember (memory may be faulty!) the 1983 (Batch 1) stock
displaced around 15 trains of 1972MkII from the Jubilee to the
Bakerloo, enabling withdrawal of all 1938 stock. This would have been
between 1984-5, and would have left the Jubilee with mixed
1983/1972MkII; Bakerloo mixed 1959/1972MkII; Northern mixed
1959/1972MkI/the few 1956 and a couple of 1962; IOW with Standard
Stock.

Around 1986 passenger numbers were rising and 1983 Batch 2 was ordered
from Metro-Cammell. As a short-term measure around half-a-dozen of the
1938 trains withdrawn, but still in bascially operational condition,
were refreshed and put in service on the Northern as that was short of
other suitable stock, I think in early 1987 - thus there had been a
year or two without any 1938 stock running anywhere.

When 1983 Batch 2 started to arrive stock was cascaded on a one-for-
one basis: 1983 B 2 into service on Jubilee = 1972 Mk II to the
Bakerloo = 1959 to the Northern = 1938 withdrawn. The last of the 1938
was finally withdrawn in Spring 1988 IIRC. Network SouthEast expressed
interest in 1938 stock as this was happening, and the equivalent of 3
or 4 (LU formation) trains of 1938 stock went for comprehensive
refurbishment resulting in 8/9 2-car NSE formations entering service
on the Isle of Wight in 1990/1.

The number of 1983 Batch 2 trains ordered was more than the 1938 stock
to be replaced, and thus enabled some cars of 1972 Mk I to be taken
from the Northern line and inserted in the middle of 1967 stock on the
Victoria (where the lack of ATO equipment was not a problem), and with
the reformation of the 1967 stock like this around 4 or 5 extra trains
were added to the Victoria line fleet, and extra sheds/sidings added
on the east side of Northumberland Park depot.

Hope this confirms, clarifies and adds to the points already covered
above - a little time-lapse animation would probably be the best way
of explaining this quickly!

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Didnt realise the electronic information boards were around in
the 1950's

They weren't. The 1959 refers to the age of
the train shown in the picture. 1959 stock ran on the Northern Line
together with 1938 (for a while), 1960 (only a couple of trains)
and 1972 Mk1.

That's 1962 not 1960 stock. Earlier the Northern Line had 1972
MkII stock too before it replaced the Bakerloo's 1938 stock.

Sorry Colin - I meant 1956 stock - the ones with the rather odd 5
headlamps.

I should know better than to be imprecise on matters such as rolling
stock!

:-))

Ah, missed that you'd omitted them. There was the 1962 Aldwych unit and
regular refugees from the Central Line though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article .com,
(MIG) wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:08 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On 4 Feb 2007 15:52:48 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

On Feb 4, 11:09 pm, wrote:
This is a good website just looking at the other pics

http://richardrandall.fotopic.net/p15383925.html

what line did this train used to be on? Its now used on the IOW

I would assume that it was on the Bakerloo immediately before,
but the most serviceable 1938 stock from the Northern and Bakerloo
was probably gathered on the Bakerloo before withdrawal, so it could

have been around a bit.

I'm probably going to get this completely wrong but the 1938
stock was used primarily on the Bakerloo Line in the 1980s. I recall
travelling on the last unit in service and catching it at
Stonebridge Park. Now although they were supposed to be withdrawn
from all LU use ISTR that a few trains made it across to the
Northern Line and ran there for a further while until other stock
could be spared - 62 stock from the Central??

I think 38 stock left the Northern before the fleet was
transferred to Alstom control as part of the Northern Line PFI deal.
1938 stock was then transferred to the Isle of Wight to replace
pre-38 stock (1923 stock?) that was running on the line.

Now someone can come and correct the above ...... ;-)

The IoW standard stock dated from 1923 to 1934.

Ah, you mean that the stuff that was revived for the Northern was
the stuff that went to the IOW? By then it had all been withdrawn from
the Bakerloo, so was probably ex-Bakerloo rather than ex-Northern
(originally having all left the Northern by about 1977).

But I don't know if the timing is right for that. I thought the IOW
had got its trains straight from the Bakerloo much earlier.

Paul is right that the Northern 1938 revival followed its withdrawal from
the Bakerloo. However I don't think all the stock converted for the IoW
came from the Northern.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Feb 4, 7:17 pm, "Mizter T" wrote:
On 4 Feb, 18:03, "brixtonite" wrote:

Angel station used to have lift access and a small island platform -
like Clapham Common. The station was very overcrowded as
development in the Islington area generated much more traffic.

Similarly at Euston, where there used to be an island platform on the
Bank branch. The arrangement was altered when the Victoria Line was
built, and the southbound platform (Northern Line, Bank branch) is wider
than normal as a result. Diagram of the changes athttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c7/Euston_tube_stati...

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

So Angel and Euston used to have island platforms, and Clapham Common
and Clapham North still do: were there any other?

Are there similar worries about safety at Clapham Common or Clapham
North? I use them both with a fair frequency but haven't ever done so
during the height of the rush hour. I still find that walking down the
narrow island platform at either station a somewhat strange and
unfamiliar experience (I'd say they're both about the same width as
the Angel platform looks like in the photo). Presumably the station
staff at the Claphams are well on the ball about monitoring potential
overcrowding on the platforms.

A friend of mine worked for the firm that designed the air
conditioning for the new Angel station. He had a big hand in it and
wnet down there many times while the work was in progress. I kept
telling him to take a camera, but he never did.

Neill

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
A similar approach was used at London Bridge IIRC and the platforms here
are different sizes for the Northern Line. All done when the Jubilee
Line extension was built.
The only tube island platforms on the Northern line in the 60s were
Angel, Clapham North and Clapham Common. London Bridge didn't have an
island platform, so were the distances between the wall and track not
enough to give a full platform depth?
--
Clive.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:46:16 +0000, "Clive Coleman."
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
A similar approach was used at London Bridge IIRC and the platforms here
are different sizes for the Northern Line. All done when the Jubilee
Line extension was built.
The only tube island platforms on the Northern line in the 60s were
Angel, Clapham North and Clapham Common. London Bridge didn't have an
island platform, so were the distances between the wall and track not
enough to give a full platform depth?

There are loads of stations with island platforms - it's just that most
of them have a huge chunk of structure or space between the platforms. I
appreciate I'm being a tad pedantic here but they are conceptually the
same as Angel and the Claphams. This is opposed to side platforms such
as Snaresbrook or Warren St for the Northern Line. You then have tiered
side platforms at places like Westminster (Jubilee Line) and Notting
Hill Gate (Central Line).

The reference to London Bridge was to say that the concept of creating a
new tunnel and platform was used there in the same way as at Angel.
London Bridge was woefully under capacity when only served by the
Northern. Adding in the Jubilee Line derived interchange traffic would
have made it unworkable so it was essential that more space was provided
at the Northern Line level (as well as at ticket hall and circulating
areas).

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 8 Feb, 17:09, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:46:16 +0000, "Clive Coleman."

wrote:
In message , Paul Corfield
writes
A similar approach was used at London Bridge IIRC and the platforms here
are different sizes for the Northern Line. All done when the Jubilee
Line extension was built.
The only tube island platforms on the Northern line in the 60s were
Angel, Clapham North and Clapham Common. London Bridge didn't have an
island platform, so were the distances between the wall and track not
enough to give a full platform depth?

There are loads of stations with island platforms - it's just that most
of them have a huge chunk of structure or space between the platforms. I
appreciate I'm being a tad pedantic here but they are conceptually the
same as Angel and the Claphams. This is opposed to side platforms such
as Snaresbrook or Warren St for the Northern Line. You then have tiered
side platforms at places like Westminster (Jubilee Line) and Notting
Hill Gate (Central Line).

The reference to London Bridge was to say that the concept of creating a
new tunnel and platform was used there in the same way as at Angel.
London Bridge was woefully under capacity when only served by the
Northern. Adding in the Jubilee Line derived interchange traffic would
have made it unworkable so it was essential that more space was provided
at the Northern Line level (as well as at ticket hall and circulating
areas).



At London Bridge (and still at Bank) the wall between (or in the
middle of the island) platorms was much thinner than at most similar
stations. The difference at Angel was that both tracks and the island
platform were in the same tunnel/arch, which seems to have remained in
place, making the very wide platform that was first referred to.
Something similar must have existed at Euston, but I never saw it.

At London Bridge, you now have three similar tunnels rather than a big
one and a small one (the middle one now being the passage).