On Feb 20, 7:56 am, James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:26:00 -0500, David of Broadway

wrote:
Ah. So if I'm understanding correctly, fare evasion is a technical
term; without the proper intent, it isn't fare evasion.

The penalty fare, being merely a type of fare, is paid by people who
might have evaded the fare in the nontechnical sense but can't be
legally charged with fare evasion.

Am I close?

That's how I understand it.

The penalty fare is known in some places[1] as the "standard fare",
perhaps to stress the "fare" nature, rather than the implications of a
fine.

[1] e.g. (from personal experience - of travelling, not of paying it!)
Manchester Metrolink and (certainly previously, not sure if it still
exists as such) buses in the Manchester area.



It's a bit more cunning than that I think. A penalty fare can be
issued to someone who can't be charged with fare evasion (and unlike
the implications above, I think that there could be a good reason why
they can't be charged, not just a technical loophole), but if they
dispute the issue of the penalty fare and don't pay it, they can then
be charged for evasion of the penalty fare, for which there obviously
is evidence.

Thank you for all your replies advice and otherwise. The freedom pass belongs to a relative who knew I had it, but didn't know I used it that day until now. I didn't give a full explanation of what happened because I didn't want people to think it was a sob story, but this is roughly what happened on my part. I had both my oyster and freedom pass which is normal for me, and yes I used the freedom pass to get through the first set of barriers. I did this because I was sure I didn't have enough money on my oyster card for the entire journey. I was in a rush and I didn't have a means to pay either. I stupidly thought just to use the freedom pass for part of the journey and the oyster for the other part. I'm fully aware that this is a poor excuse, seeing as there isn't any real good excuse, but it wasn't like I woke up that day and planned break the law, it was a split second decision, a very stupid one I now regret. Does this make any difference to the outcome? I'm so scared of whats going to happen especially the idea of prison. Any further advice or comments will be appreicated. Thank you again.

James Farrar wrote:

The penalty fare is known in some places[1] as the "standard fare",
perhaps to stress the "fare" nature, rather than the implications of a
fine.

Interesting.

In a sense, we have something similar here on our commuter rail systems.

Except at the new Secaucus Junction station, mainly used for transfers,
our commuter rail stations are ungated. Tickets can be purchased in
advance (from a ticket machine, a ticket window, or the web) or on the
train, but there is a surcharge (typically in the area of $5 these days)
if a ticket /could/ have been purchased at the station (from a machine
or window) but wasn't. However, buying the ticket on-board isn't in any
way akin to fare evasion or theft -- if you're running late and you
don't have time to buy the ticket in the station, there's nothing wrong
with boarding without a ticket and paying a few bucks extra when the
conductor comes around.

By now, most systems (around here, at least) have installed ticket
machines at each station, so the on-board surcharge is generally
collected everywhere. (Previously, many outlying stations didn't have
machines, and their ticket windows were only open in the morning rush
hour.) The one major exception is SEPTA, Philadelphia's transit agency,
which very recently (within the past month) /removed/ all of its ticket
machines (which were problematic -- they didn't accept the latest forms
of currency let alone credit and debit cards) and officially stopped
charging the on-board surcharge for anybody boarding outside Center City
(from what I hear, the practice had been unofficially stopped a long
time ago).

I'm afraid this is how these policies sometimes work out:
http://www.badtransit.com/index.php?...s_we_go_along/
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Michelle wrote:
I stupidly
thought just to use the freedom pass for part of the journey and the
oyster for the other part.

I don't understand how that would work. But it's not really important.

I'm fully aware that this is a poor excuse,
seeing as there isn't any real good excuse, but it wasn't like I woke up
that day and planned break the law, it was a split second decision, a
very stupid one I now regret. Does this make any difference to the
outcome?

Well, if you are prosecuted, you could always tell this to the
magistrates who should consider it as a mitigating factor in passing
sentence.

I'm so scared of whats going to happen especially the idea of
prison.

It seems pretty unlikely you would be thrown in prison for such a minor
offence on the first conviction. I don't think that would fit with the
sentencing guidelines unless you had some aggravating factors you
haven't told us about. Don't worry about it.
--
Michael Hoffman

On 20-Feb-2007, Michelle wrote:

I'm so scared of whats going to happen especially the idea of
prison. Any further advice or comments will be appreicated.

It's extremely unlikely you'd be sent to jail. You'll get a summons
that will tell you when and where you are to appear, and what
law you have broken. You'll stand in front of a magistrate where
you will feel really stoopid, and get a fine, and if prosecuted for
theft, you'll have a record too. If so, the offence will stay on record
for five years. I'm not condoning it, but on the scale of things,
your offence is very minor, so keep things in perspective.

When the summons arrives, take advice from a solicitor.

In message , David of Broadway
writes
By now, most systems (around here, at least) have installed ticket
machines at each station,
About two years ago, both myself and wife were on holiday in NY and
decided to get the Subway from Times Sq. We walked down this little
stairway and was confronted with two full height turnstiles one in, one
out and a wall mounted machine to buy tickets from. We got two tickets
from the machine, my wife went through the turnstile but when I went to
go through the gate just said ticket invalid. So my wife came out.
At the next Subway ticket office we came to I presented both tickets and
an explanation of what had happened, the man on the other side ran the
through a machine and said "They've both been used" and refused a
refund. All he would say was you now got souvenirs to take back with
you. I was not impressed.
--
Clive.

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

And what sort of answer is that? Only people who are familiar with
the detail of the case can actually provide useful help. I have
pointed the poster towards getting that help.


Sorry - that's what I meant. I was kind of paraphrasing what you wrote.
She's asking for advice in the wrong place, as either people here work for
TfL so it would be inappropriate for them to comment on a case that may go
to prosecution; OR they are going to be more concerned about her semantics
and her use of the word "fine" instead of "penalty fare" - you know who you
are ;-)

All she needs to know, whether you agree or not - and I'm not saying that I
do - is:

Assuming she's done this before (and I'm guessing she has)...
(a) should she come clean about it, beg forgiveness etc and if so would she
just be given a caution for her honesty; or
(b) should be say it was a one-off, and hope that they won't check CCTV
cameras against freedom card usage and end up prosecuting her for sure.

IE what's the likelihood that they do (b) and is it a risk worth taking.

I'm sure you'll agree that the chances of there being ANYONE here who is
likely to answer that question with any degree of impartiality is zilch.

And even those here who feel sympathy for her are not going to want to
contribute on UTL for fear of being flamed to **** by some of the more
aggressive types here (again, you know who you are!)

So I just politely hinted that she'd be better off getting a response from
a group that is less connected with either transport staff or transport
enthusiasts.

Whichever option she chooses, I think she learnt her lesson and by her own
admission is scared ****less.

Michelle wrote in
:

SNIP
seeing as there isn't any real good excuse, but it wasn't like I woke up
that day and planned break the law, it was a split second decision, a
SNIP


Ahh - ignore my other post then - I sent that before I read your story.

Paul Weaver wrote

It's annoying as two singles is actually cheaper than a return, but
the risk of forgetting (and the hastle of buying when you do remember)
doesn't make it worthwhile.

Why not buy the two singles at the same time ?

In the old days there were cases when a return was cheaper than a
single (evening Nightrider from Bletchley to London).

--
Mike D

On Feb 21, 4:21 am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

In the old days there were cases when a return was cheaper than a
single (evening Nightrider from Bletchley to London).

There still are, on a very similar route. CDR Milton Keynes to London
or vice-versa, Silverlink only is gbp12.90. There is no routed cheap
day single.

The GMPTE Cheap Evening Returns spring to mind as another example.

Neil