"Neill":
It suddenly struck me yesterday when I was up in London, why do TFL
still use the old British Rail logo? Whenever you get to a station
with an overground rail connection, there are signs saying "Trains"
with an arrow and the old logo.

Lewis Cox:
It's *not* an old logo. Every railway station in the country shows that
logo - its accepted as the standard design in the UK meaning "Railway",
regardless of who is running the trains. National Rail still use it, maps
still use it... why would you change it?

Well, some might prefer it to be changed because it seems to imply that
there is a still a single organization responsible for all those trains.
On the other hand, some also might prefer to leave it alone just on the
off-chance that that situation comes to pass again.

In fact I'd also like to what they
think the things that run on the Underground are if not "trains"?

In non enthusiast speak, they are tubes - even the sub-surface stock.

Well, I think enough people know them as "tube trains" for that
explanation not to fly. Consider also all those signs that say
things like "1st *train* - High Barnet - 1 min" (emphasis added).

I suggest, instead, that when the signs read "BR sign trains", the
symbol is meant to be interpreted as an adjective, so it's national
rail trains as opposed to tube trains.
--
Mark Brader "The routes 'London' and 'not London' are
Toronto not necessarily mutually exclusive."
--Tim Stevens for ATOC, UK

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:49:38 -0800 (PST), chunky munky
wrote:

London Overground isn't quite like a TOC. It is a concession from TfL.
A private firm operate it on TfLs behalf. TfL set the timetable, fares
and staffing levels. They also retain 100% of the fares.

Apart from revenue risk, it is not dissimilar from Merseyrail, which
is "franchised" by the PTE. It is, however, still part of the
national network, which LOROL will need to remain unless TfL plans on
removing fares interavailability, through fares and the likes which is
likely to annoy quite a few people if they do.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 06:49:08 -0000, (Mark Brader) wrote:

Well, some might prefer it to be changed because it seems to imply that
there is a still a single organization responsible for all those trains.

Why does it have to represent that? I suppose we could go over to the
"European" symbol (the front view of a train) but why confuse people?

In any case, even if it is operated by a lot of companies, it is still
(just about) a single integrated network.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

It is, however, still part of the national network, which LOROL will
need to remain unless TfL plans on removing fares interavailability,
through fares and the likes which is likely to annoy quite a few
people if they do.

Once zonal fares have been fully implemented within the London zones,
will they care if people can't get fares between LOROL-operated lines and
the rest of the national network? They gave up caring about that for
fares from the District to the old Southern Region years ago, it would
appear.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 29 Dec, 00:36, "Lew 1" wrote:

It's *not* an old logo. Every railway station in the country shows that
logo

Not quite every station. St Pancras has only HS1 logos, not a BR
Double Arrow in sight!

On Dec 29, 11:28 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:
On 29 Dec, 00:36, "Lew 1" wrote:

It's *not* an old logo. Every railway station in the country shows that
logo

Not quite every station. St Pancras has only HS1 logos, not a BR
Double Arrow in sight!

Nor do stations served only by the UndergrounD. The logo is used only
for the 'National Rail' network. At privatisation this was easy to
define as all lines owned by Railtrack. Not so simple now.

In article
,
(umpston) wrote:

On Dec 29, 11:28 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:
On 29 Dec, 00:36, "Lew 1"
wrote:

It's *not* an old logo. Every railway station in the country
shows that logo

Not quite every station. St Pancras has only HS1 logos, not a BR
Double Arrow in sight!

Nor do stations served only by the UndergrounD. The logo is used only
for the 'National Rail' network. At privatisation this was easy to
define as all lines owned by Railtrack. Not so simple now.

So why isn't used at St Pancras International? It is served by two
'National Rail' TOCs, East Midlands Trains and First Capital Connect.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article
,
(umpston) wrote:

On Dec 29, 11:28 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:
On 29 Dec, 00:36, "Lew 1"
wrote:

It's *not* an old logo. Every railway station in the country
shows that logo

Not quite every station. St Pancras has only HS1 logos, not a BR
Double Arrow in sight!

Nor do stations served only by the UndergrounD. The logo is used only
for the 'National Rail' network. At privatisation this was easy to
define as all lines owned by Railtrack. Not so simple now.

So why isn't used at St Pancras International? It is served by two
'National Rail' TOCs, East Midlands Trains and First Capital Connect.


IIRC Network Rail didn't take over management of St Pancras International #
until mid December - might that have something to do with it?

# where the NR site says, on the media release about the Thameslink
platforms: "Network Rail already manages the entire St Pancras International
station" - do they really mean the Eurostar aspects as well? IIRC when the
traffic management and temporary signage was being discussed a few weeks ago
it was generally consider that NR had nothing to do with St Pancras
operational aspects

Paul

Mark Brader:
Well, some might prefer it to be changed because it seems to imply that
there is a still a single organization responsible for all those trains.

Neil Williams:
Why does it have to represent that?

Where did I say "has to"?
--
Mark Brader "Never re-invent the wheel unnecessarily;
Toronto yours may have corners."
-- Henry Spencer

What's also odd is that the 'Overground' flashes on LUL car diagrams
inside trains do not have the BR/NR double arrow but those affixed to
station diagrams do. And those on station diagrams are being placed
against every possible LU/LO interchange and not as per the design
manual. EG a Bakerloo Line NB sign at Baker Street should show LO
interchange at Queens Park (for Euston), Willesden Junction (for NLL/
WLL) and Harrow & Wealdstone (for NB DC line) yet the amending
stickers shown at evert 'joint' LO/LU station.