I've been trying to get a handle on exactly what this amounts to but
have failed to find any details diagrams or descriptions. Does anyone
have any or understand what's what?

My current under-informed guess:
- Trains from the Brighton fasts to Thameslink will go over it
- The Brighton Down Slow will go under it
- Thameslink trains from the SEML fasts will go over it (crossing the
Brighton Down Slow?)
- Kent trains to Charing Cross will go under it
- Where do Charing Cross trains from the Brighton fasts go - over it?
past it? either side of it?

Thanks.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...
I've been trying to get a handle on exactly what this amounts to but
have failed to find any details diagrams or descriptions. Does anyone
have any or understand what's what?

My current under-informed guess:
- Trains from the Brighton fasts to Thameslink will go over it
- The Brighton Down Slow will go under it
- Thameslink trains from the SEML fasts will go over it (crossing the
Brighton Down Slow?)
- Kent trains to Charing Cross will go under it
- Where do Charing Cross trains from the Brighton fasts go - over it?
past it? either side of it?


I have a pdf download of a Thameslink Environmental Statement from Jun 2004,
which has some drawings of the Bermondsey and Tanners Hill areas, but I
can't find it on the web anywhere now. Can I email it to you?

Extracts:

"The objective of the works at Bermondsey is to remove the conflict between
Kent and Brighton services created by an existing flat junction east of
Rotherhithe New Road, and to enable these services to line up for their
respective London termini beyond London Bridge. The junction currently
limits the number of pathways for these services into and out of London
Bridge Station.

"This constraint will be removed by re-configuring the junction to allow
Charing Cross/Kent services to “dive-under” the Brighton line. A two-box
structure will be built west of Bolina Road each taking two tracks beneath
the Brighton lines. Various track re-alignments will be needed each side of
the boxes and this will require the partial demolition of the existing brick
arch viaducts either side of Bolina Road, over about 600 metres. A retaining
wall will be constructed along Jarrow Road. A length of the former
Bricklayers Arms Viaduct will be brought back into use and widened to
accommodate the Kent line as it descends east of Bolina Road.

"The railway bridge over Bolina Road will be reconstructed. Bolina Road will
be closed permanently to vehicles north of the Enterprise Industrial Estate;
pedestrian access will be maintained by the provision of a new underpass.
The bridge to take the New Cross spur over the proposed route for the East
London Line will be reconstructed. A new bridge is required to take the down
Sussex slow line over the East London Line route."

I think it is significant that there are 4 tracks taken under the
'Thameslink pair' - another point I recall reading in recent days was
something about 'no Thameslink trains off the SEML fasts' - can't lay my
hands on that either though!

Paul S

On 24 Apr, 00:57, "Paul Scott" wrote:
I have a pdf download of a Thameslink Environmental Statement from Jun 2004,
which has some drawings of the Bermondsey and Tanners Hill areas, but I
can't find it on the web anywhere now. *Can I email it to you?

That'd be excellent, thanks.

I think it is significant that there are 4 tracks taken under the
'Thameslink pair' - another point I recall reading in recent days was
something about 'no Thameslink trains off the SEML fasts' - can't lay my
hands on that either though!

None off the North Kent network I think is the current decision.
There are 4 fast from Orpington which are the only Kent Thameslink
trains via London Bridge (there are two more via Elephant.

(all from the South London RUS)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...
I've been trying to get a handle on exactly what this amounts to but
have failed to find any details diagrams or descriptions. Does anyone
have any or understand what's what?

My current under-informed guess:
- Trains from the Brighton fasts to Thameslink will go over it
- The Brighton Down Slow will go under it
- Thameslink trains from the SEML fasts will go over it (crossing the
Brighton Down Slow?)
- Kent trains to Charing Cross will go under it
- Where do Charing Cross trains from the Brighton fasts go - over it?
past it? either side of it?

The track diagram in the February 2007 MR shows the four tracks using the
diveunder to be the Down Charing Cross Slow, the Down Charing Cross Fast,
the Up Charing Cross (only splits into Fast and Slow at Southwark Park
Junction) and the Down Brighton Slow. At that time the assumption was that
Thameslink - South Eastern trains would go to Dartford via the Slow Lines at
New Cross - down trains would take a route north of the diveunder crossing
to the Down Slow at North Kent East Junction, while up trains would use the
Down Charing Cross Slow reversibly via the diveunder. I don't know whether
there has been any refinement to the layout now that it is envisaged that
Thameslink - SEML trains will run fast towards Tonbridge. However, with 28
tph envisaged in the peaks to/from Charing Cross, the Thameslink - SEML
trains may well have to use the slow lines through New Cross anyway, as
Cannon Street will only have 20 tph of which 6 will go via Greenwich.

Peter

On 24 Apr, 09:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:
The track diagram in the February 2007 MR shows the four tracks using the
diveunder to be the Down Charing Cross Slow, the Down Charing Cross Fast,
the Up Charing Cross (only splits into Fast and Slow at Southwark Park
Junction) and the Down Brighton Slow.

So in summary, from the diagrams Paul sent me, the flyover appears to
create:
- At the north end, a grade separated junction between the BML fasts
and SEML slows onto the Thameslink route
- At the south end, a grade separated junction between the Thameslink
route (BML fasts) and the LB terminus route (BML slows)
- In the middle, a route for the SEML passing underneath the
Thameslink route to get to to Charing Cross (two dedicated tracks plus
the north track)

I don't know whether
there has been any refinement to the layout now that it is envisaged that
Thameslink - SEML trains will run fast towards Tonbridge. However, with 28
tph envisaged in the peaks to/from Charing Cross, the Thameslink - SEML
trains may well have to use the slow lines through New Cross anyway, as
Cannon Street will only have 20 tph of which 6 will go via Greenwich.

That's a very good point. But as long as the crossing move was done
before all the fast trains through Lewisham join the line (ah, so
that's what the Tanner's Hill flydown upgrade is for), it shouldn't be
a big deal.

There'll still be many flat junctions handling 20 tph.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Mr Thant" wrote

That's a very good point. But as long as the crossing move was done
before all the fast trains through Lewisham join the line (ah, so
that's what the Tanner's Hill flydown upgrade is for), it shouldn't be
a big deal.

There'll still be many flat junctions handling 20 tph.

In particular, Ewer Street Junction where the Fast and Slow Charing Cross
lines converge for the 2-track section through Metropolitan and Borough
Market Junctions to London Bridge. At present the signaller can choose to
make the crossing move at either Ewer Street or Metropolitan Junctions, but
in future will not want to use Metropolitan Junction for this because of
conflicts with Thameslink. Also Tanners Hill Junction. Presumably the peak
timetable will be designed to accommodate parallel moves at these two
junctions (e.g. a down Charing Cross to Lewisham train passes Tanners Hill
Junction at the same time as an up Lewisham to Charing Cross train) - all
very well in the train plan, but liable to fall to pieces if anything is
running out of course.

An earlier version of the track plan showed Cannon Street trains using
platforms 1 - 3 at London Bridge as now, Thameslink platforms 4 and 5, no
track against platform 6, and Charing Cross trains using the four new
through platforms. In the February 2007 version everything has been shifted
up one - Cannon Street in 2 -4 and Thameslink in 5 and 6, with no track
against platform 1. Does anyone know why, and why can't Cannon Street trains
have 4 platforms at London Bridge? ISTM that the reason why Cannon Street
will be limited to 20 tph is capacity for contra-peak trains, including ecs,
at London Bridge, once the ecs route from or via Blackfriars Reversing
Siding is lost.

Peter

On 24 Apr, 15:05, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mr Thant" wrote

That's a very good point. But as long as the crossing move was done
before all the fast trains through Lewisham join the line (ah, so
that's what the Tanner's Hill flydown upgrade is for), it shouldn't be
a big deal.

There'll still be many flat junctions handling 20 tph.

In particular, Ewer Street Junction where the Fast and Slow Charing Cross
lines converge for the 2-track section through Metropolitan and Borough
Market Junctions to London Bridge. At present the signaller can choose to
make the crossing move at either Ewer Street or Metropolitan Junctions, but
in future will not want to use Metropolitan Junction for this because of
conflicts with Thameslink. Also Tanners Hill Junction. Presumably the peak
timetable will be designed to accommodate parallel moves at these two
junctions (e.g. a down Charing Cross to Lewisham train passes Tanners Hill
Junction at the same time as an up Lewisham to Charing Cross train) - all
very well in the train plan, but liable to fall to pieces if anything is
running out of course.

Are contra-peak Charing Cross to/from Lewisham trains envisaged?

If so, that's an added connection against a background of generally
reduced connections and increased changing at London Bridge.


An earlier version of the track plan showed Cannon Street trains using
platforms 1 - 3 at London Bridge as now, Thameslink platforms 4 and 5, no
track against platform 6, and Charing Cross trains using the four new
through platforms. In the February 2007 version everything has been shifted
up one - Cannon Street in 2 -4 and Thameslink in 5 and 6, with no track
against platform 1. Does anyone know why, and why can't Cannon Street trains
have 4 platforms at London Bridge? ISTM that the reason why Cannon Street
will be limited to 20 tph is capacity for contra-peak trains, including ecs,
at London Bridge, once the ecs route from or via Blackfriars Reversing
Siding is lost.

Peter

"MIG" wrote

Are contra-peak Charing Cross to/from Lewisham trains envisaged?

I can't see how the evening peak can be run without them. With 28 tph from
Charing Cross there'll have to be 28 tph contra-peak (passenger or ecs) into
Charing Cross. So there'll be 28 tph each way through Tanners Hill Junction.
Some of the down trains will run to Lewisham, and have to cross the Up Fast
Line at Tanners Hill Junction. Realistically the only way of doing this is
to have trains from Lewisham to Charing Cross parallelling them through the
junction.

The 1976 evening peak timetable included 28 tph from Charing Cross, but of
these 3 crossed at Spa Road and ran via Greenwich, and 3 crossed to the Slow
Line at North Kent East, so only 22 ran on the Fast Line at Tanners Hill
Junction.6 of these ran via the spur. On the Up Fast there were 22 trains
through Tanners Hill Junction (these had to cross the 6 down via the spur),
with another 3 coming via Greenwich and crossing at Spa Road.

Peter

On 24 Apr, 19:50, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"MIG" wrote

Are contra-peak Charing Cross to/from Lewisham trains envisaged?

I can't see how the evening peak can be run without them. With 28 tph from
Charing Cross there'll have to be 28 tph contra-peak (passenger or ecs) into
Charing Cross. So there'll be 28 tph each way through Tanners Hill Junction.
Some of the down trains will run to Lewisham, and have to cross the Up Fast
Line at Tanners Hill Junction. Realistically the only way of doing this is
to have trains from Lewisham to Charing Cross parallelling them through the
junction.

It would be a handy new connection if they did. At the moment, there
are a few services which, in lieu of being ecs, just start at Hither
Green and provide extra frequency between London Bridge and Waterloo,
which is a peak flow for people going south west.

Maybe the equivalents of those will be able to divert through, and
call at, Lewisham as well.

The 1976 evening peak timetable included 28 tph from Charing Cross, but of
these 3 crossed at Spa Road and ran via Greenwich, and 3 crossed to the Slow
Line at North Kent East, so only 22 ran on the Fast Line at Tanners Hill
Junction.6 of these ran via the spur. On the Up Fast there were 22 trains
through Tanners Hill Junction (these had to cross the 6 down via the spur),
with another 3 coming via Greenwich and crossing at Spa Road.

"MIG" wrote

It would be a handy new connection if they did. At the moment, there
are a few services which, in lieu of being ecs, just start at Hither
Green and provide extra frequency between London Bridge and Waterloo,
which is a peak flow for people going south west.

Maybe the equivalents of those will be able to divert through, and
call at, Lewisham as well.

AIUI the RUS envisages that the peak service will consist as far as possible
of the off-peak service plus peak extras, rather than what has been the case
on the South eastern network up till now, i.e. until the 1970s London Bridge
resignalling a standard pattern off-peak service but no discernible peak
pattern at all, and since the resignalling a 20-minute peak cycle (later
eased to 21 minutes when BR invented the 63 minute hour) which bears no
discenible relation to the off-peak pattern. If this is the case the
Bexleyheath route, and North Kent via Woolwich and Lewisham, will get
contra-peak Charing Cross services via the doubled Tanners Hill spur. If
they manage to get this right it will mean that the only stations not to get
Charing Cross trains, but only Cannon Street, will be the four from
Westcombe Park to Deptford, though these won't get any Charing Cross trains
at all, at any time of the day.

Peter