This is especially for Mizter T but I hope that it may be of benefit
to others.
You may recall my proposed journey Greenford - Camden Road via
Shepherd's Bush (London Overground), nor crossing into Z1 and the
availability of my z2-6 YPRC cap on Oyster. I was told that perhaps
breaking my journey at White City may force the cap. Well here is
what happened.
I had to go to Stratford to meet some friends first.

Greenford - White City (Central Line ) = £1.10

Shepherd's Bush - Stratford ( London Overground, changing at Willesden
Junction) = £2.20

Stratford - Camden Road ( London Overground) = £1.10

TOTAL = £4.40

[Z2-6 CAP = £3.00]

I had thought that going from ShepB to Stratford via LO would have
resulted in my fare being capped, obviously this did not happen. I was
also charged for the Stratford - Camden Road journey. I queried this
with Ticket Staff and they said that to get from Shepherd's Bush to
Stratford I must have gone through Z1 and that I was going to reach my
cap for the day when my Oyster usage reached £5.80 ( 1-6 cap). When I
said I used LO via Willesden Junction and did not travel through Z1
they were flummoxed and said I should ring Customer Service. So can
we conclude that Shepherds Bush (LO /WLL/NLL) - Stratford is a via
Zone 1 journey / fare even though the obvious route of choice is not
via the central line ( ie via z1) but via WLL/NLL ? Unfair ?
Incorrect ?

Salamatsys !

On Feb 15, 11:23*am, wrote:
This is especially for Mizter T but I hope that it may be of benefit
to others.
You may recall my proposed journey Greenford - Camden *Road via
Shepherd's Bush (London *Overground), nor crossing into *Z1 and the
availability of my z2-6 YPRC cap on Oyster. * I was told that perhaps
breaking my journey at *White City may force the cap. Well here is
what happened.
I had to go to Stratford to meet some friends first.

Greenford - White City (Central Line ) = £1.10

Shepherd's Bush - Stratford ( London Overground, changing at Willesden
Junction) = £2.20

Stratford - Camden *Road ( London Overground) = £1.10

TOTAL = £4.40

[Z2-6 CAP = £3.00]

I had thought that going from ShepB to *Stratford via LO would have
resulted in my fare being capped, obviously this did not happen. I was
also charged for the Stratford - Camden Road journey. I queried this
with Ticket Staff and they said that to get from Shepherd's Bush to
Stratford I must have gone through Z1 and that I was going to reach my
cap for the day when my Oyster usage reached £5.80 ( 1-6 cap). When I
said I used LO via Willesden Junction and did not travel through Z1
they were flummoxed and said I should ring Customer Service. So *can
we conclude that Shepherds Bush (LO /WLL/NLL) - Stratford is a via
Zone 1 journey / fare *even though the obvious route of choice is not
via the central *line ( ie via z1) but via WLL/NLL ? Unfair ?
Incorrect ?

Salamatsys !

If I interpreted that right, it means that the reader at Shepherds
Bush LO is programmed to be the same as the reader at Shepherds Bush
Central Line, despite being a separate building and it not being
possible to reach the Central Line from it.

That does seem to be unfair.

On 15 Feb, 11:23, wrote:
This is especially for Mizter T but I hope that it may be of benefit
to others.
You may recall my proposed journey Greenford - Camden *Road via
Shepherd's Bush (London *Overground), nor crossing into *Z1 and the
availability of my z2-6 YPRC cap on Oyster. * I was told that perhaps
breaking my journey at *White City may force the cap. Well here is
what happened.
I had to go to Stratford to meet some friends first.

Greenford - White City (Central Line ) = £1.10

Shepherd's Bush - Stratford ( London Overground, changing at Willesden
Junction) = £2.20

Stratford - Camden *Road ( London Overground) = £1.10

TOTAL = £4.40

[Z2-6 CAP = £3.00]

I had thought that going from ShepB to *Stratford via LO would have
resulted in my fare being capped, obviously this did not happen. I was
also charged for the Stratford - Camden Road journey. I queried this
with Ticket Staff and they said that to get from Shepherd's Bush to
Stratford I must have gone through Z1 and that I was going to reach my
cap for the day when my Oyster usage reached £5.80 ( 1-6 cap). When I
said I used LO via Willesden Junction and did not travel through Z1
they were flummoxed and said I should ring Customer Service. So *can
we conclude that Shepherds Bush (LO /WLL/NLL) - Stratford is a via
Zone 1 journey / fare *even though the obvious route of choice is not
via the central *line ( ie via z1) but via WLL/NLL ? Unfair ?
Incorrect ?


Yes, you can conclude that a Shepherd's Bush (LO/ WLL) to Stratford
journey is assumed to be via zone 1. I can tell you this because
that's what the TfL Fare finder tells me - specifically that the fare
from "Shepherd's Bush [London Overground]" to "Stratford" is either
£2.70 peak or £2.20 off-peak, and those are the zone 1-3 fares.

TfL Fare finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...09/farefinder/

And yes, I do think it's daft. My guess as to why this is the case is
that perhaps both Shepherd's Bush Central line and WLL stations are
treated as kind of being the same station on the Oyster database,
either because the architecture of the Oyster database means this is
required (in order to maintain the out-of-station interchange) or
because it hasn't been thought through well enough.

If it is the former problem - that the system can't cope with it -
then I'd hope that the upcoming upgrade to the whole Oyster PAYG
system would resolve that.

If you look at the TfL fare finder you'll see that "Shepherd's Bush
[London Overground]" to "Camden Road" is charged at £1.10 (both peak
and off-peak) - therefore if you had broken your journey at White City
and travelled on from Shepherd's Bush (LO/WLL) only as far as Camden
Road then I'm confident you'd be in line for the zone 2-6 cap of £4.60
(or £3.00 with a Railcard). Going to Stratford unfortunately pushes it
over the edge to a via z1 fare.

I suppose you could try writing to Oyster customer services about this
- not the Shepherd's Bush out-of-station interchange issue (best to
keep it simple) but just the fact that journeys from Shepherd's Bush
(LO/WLL) to Stratford fares are charged as being via z1 even when you
travel on the NLL.

Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 11:23, wrote:
This is especially for Mizter T but I hope that it may be of benefit
to others.
You may recall my proposed journey Greenford - Camden Road via
Shepherd's Bush (London Overground), nor crossing into Z1 and the
availability of my z2-6 YPRC cap on Oyster. I was told that perhaps
breaking my journey at White City may force the cap. Well here is
what happened.
I had to go to Stratford to meet some friends first.

Greenford - White City (Central Line ) = £1.10

Shepherd's Bush - Stratford ( London Overground, changing at Willesden
Junction) = £2.20

Stratford - Camden Road ( London Overground) = £1.10

TOTAL = £4.40

[Z2-6 CAP = £3.00]

I had thought that going from ShepB to Stratford via LO would have
resulted in my fare being capped, obviously this did not happen. I was
also charged for the Stratford - Camden Road journey. I queried this
with Ticket Staff and they said that to get from Shepherd's Bush to
Stratford I must have gone through Z1 and that I was going to reach my
cap for the day when my Oyster usage reached £5.80 ( 1-6 cap). When I
said I used LO via Willesden Junction and did not travel through Z1
they were flummoxed and said I should ring Customer Service. So can
we conclude that Shepherds Bush (LO /WLL/NLL) - Stratford is a via
Zone 1 journey / fare even though the obvious route of choice is not
via the central line ( ie via z1) but via WLL/NLL ? Unfair ?
Incorrect ?


Yes, you can conclude that a Shepherd's Bush (LO/ WLL) to Stratford
journey is assumed to be via zone 1. I can tell you this because
that's what the TfL Fare finder tells me - specifically that the fare
from "Shepherd's Bush [London Overground]" to "Stratford" is either
£2.70 peak or £2.20 off-peak, and those are the zone 1-3 fares.

TfL Fare finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...09/farefinder/

(snip)

If you look at the TfL fare finder you'll see that "Shepherd's Bush
[London Overground]" to "Camden Road" is charged at £1.10 (both peak
and off-peak) - therefore if you had broken your journey at White City
and travelled on from Shepherd's Bush (LO/WLL) only as far as Camden
Road then I'm confident you'd be in line for the zone 2-6 cap of £4.60
(or £3.00 with a Railcard). Going to Stratford unfortunately pushes it
over the edge to a via z1 fare.

(snip)

I'm not quite up to speed today! There's nothing wrong in what I said
in the above post (apart perhaps from it being too verbose! - you'll
see I've snipped some of what I quoted), however I failed to think of
something really obvious!

If you wanted to break a Shepherd's Bush to Stratford journey to
ensure you only paid zone 2&3 fares and thus qualified for the z2-6
cap, at Willesden Jn station where you have to change from the WLL to
the NLL train you could simply exit and then re-enter the station,
i.e. go out of the gates and then back in them. This would mean you
would pay for a Shepherd's Bush [LO] to Willesden Jn fare (zone 2),
and then a separate Willesden Jn to Stratford fare (zone 2&3).

On the way from Shepherd's Bush to Stratford one has a 17 minute wait
for the next eastbound NLL train, so that's plenty of time for such
things. Going the other way, from Stratford to Shepherd's Bush, one
might have a tighter 6 minutes to do this in (or otherwise 21 minutes
- the NLL is every 15 mins, the WLL is half-hourly, so it depends
which NLL train you catch).

However in my book that's more than enough time as long as you don't
dilly dally when you get there (though this is all assuming that the
NLL and WLL is running to time, perhaps a bad assumption to make!).
Anyway, in the case of your example, you might only be coming back
west from Camden Road, unless you go with your friends to Stratford
and then come back on yourself. Note - all the times given are for
middle of the day journeys, things are different late evening (when
the NLL is ever 20 mins) and Sundays (when the NLL is half-hourly), so
don't rely on me and check them first [1].

If you don't want people to think you're mad by exiting and then
immediately re-entering the station, then Willesden Jn has two
entrances with two separate gatelines - if you've enough time (and 6
minutes is not enough unless you run!) you could leave from one exit
and re-enter the station through its other entrance.

I realise this journey is now sounding like a real palaver - exit the
Central line at White City, walk to Shepherd's Bush, exit and then re-
enter Willesden Jn station! Which led me on to another thought...

Forget about the WLL altogether! At White City you're not actually
that far from Willesden Junction, and there is a frequent bus route,
the 220, that goes from Wood Lane (the road directly outside White
City station) up to Willesden Jn - it runs every 6-10 mins and is
scheduled to take 11 minutes to get to the eastern side way entrance
to Willesden Jn station (off Harlesden High Street), or otherwise 14
minutes to get to the western (main) entrance.

You can see the 220 on this map of bus routes from White City - it
goes from bus stop WE opposite the station entrance:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaro...field-2447.pdf

This is the bus route map around Willesden Jn - the eastern side
entrance to the station is I think right next to bus stop H, the one
that's named "Harrow Road/ Scrubs Lane":
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaro...ation-2301.pdf

Alternatively stay on the bus to arrive at the main station entrance
on Station Approach.

By the by the side entrance is actually quite useful, as the buses can
get a but stuck in traffic going through Harlesden to get to the main
station entrance, though the side way in is possibly somewhere you
might want to avoid at night. This bird's eye view shows where it is
in relation to Harlesden High Street (which the map incorrectly labels
as Harrow Road) - the bus stop is just on the bridge, the entrance is
down those stairs off the bridge and then pan the map to the west/
left and you'll come to the station:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?cp...&style=b&lvl=2

I think there could well be something in this route - the WLL service
is after all only half-hourly (this is set to improve in the future,
but not quite yet) so you might end up waiting around for a long time
at Shepherd's Bush, only to have to wait around for longer at
Willesden Jn. The 220 meanwhile is a decent and direct bus route -
there's also the 228 that links White City with Willesden Jn though it
does look as if it goes round the houses a bit. I'd say this route
would likely provide a better chance of catching an eastbound NLL
train from Willesden Jn earlier than if one was to go via Shepherd's
Bush, resulting in a quicker end-to-end journey. And of course it
would qualify for the z2-6 cap too!


----------
[1] If you haven't come across it before this is a good site for train
times - all the information comes directly from the National Rail
journey planner but is presented in a more basic less flashy way:
http://traintimes.org.uk/

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 00:45:33 -0000, Mizter T wrote:


Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 11:23, wrote:
This is especially for Mizter T but I hope that it may be of benefit
to others.
You may recall my proposed journey Greenford - Camden Road via
Shepherd's Bush (London Overground) [to avoid zone 1]

Forget about the WLL altogether! At White City you're not actually
that far from Willesden Junction, and there is a frequent bus route,
the 220, that goes from Wood Lane

If we're getting a bus, might I suggest alighting at North Acton and
getting a 266 (Stop Z towards Brent Cross) for the 5 min journey to
Willesden Junction.

--
Fig

On 16 Feb, 02:26, Fig wrote:

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 00:45:33 -0000, Mizter T wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Feb, 11:23, wrote:
This is especially for Mizter T but I hope that it may be of benefit
to others.
You may recall my proposed journey Greenford - Camden *Road via
Shepherd's Bush (London *Overground) [to avoid zone 1]

Forget about the WLL altogether! At White City you're not actually
that far from Willesden Junction, and there is a frequent bus route,
the 220, that goes from Wood Lane

If we're getting a bus, might I suggest alighting at North Acton and *
getting a 266 (Stop Z towards Brent Cross) for the 5 min journey to *
Willesden Junction.


Fair enough - I'd thought about walking between either North Acton or
East Acton (Central line) and South Acton (NLL) but hadn't looked into
the bus situation. The 266 is of course one of west London's trunk
routes so it offers a good, frequent service too. What's more is that
is goes straight up Old Oak Lane which is next to the main western
entrance to the station (stop L), so no need to walk down the pathway
from the eastern side way in either. And it is indeed literally a 5
minute journey, so says the timetable, with buses "every 5-9
minutes" [1].

Excellent stuff Fig, thanks for that.


----------
[1] This unofficial website offers the full (non-simplified)
timetables of all bus routes in London, should one want the exact
timings of when a bus is supposed to be running:
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Forget about the WLL altogether! At White City you're not actually
that far from Willesden Junction, and there is a frequent bus route,
the 220, that goes from Wood Lane (the road directly outside White
City station) up to Willesden Jn - it runs every 6-10 mins and is
scheduled to take 11 minutes to get to the eastern side way entrance
to Willesden Jn station (off Harlesden High Street), or otherwise 14
minutes to get to the western (main) entrance.

You can see the 220 on this map of bus routes from White City - it
goes from bus stop WE opposite the station entrance:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaro.../whitecitywest
field-2447.pdf

This is the bus route map around Willesden Jn - the eastern side
entrance to the station is I think right next to bus stop H, the one
that's named "Harrow Road/ Scrubs Lane":
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaro.../willesdenjunc
tionstation-2301.pdf

Alternatively stay on the bus to arrive at the main station entrance
on Station Approach.

The 220 is the successor to the old 630 trolleybus route of my youth (and
before it the 30 tram route). ISTR that terminated "Near Willesden
Junction" which sounds like bus stop H to me.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for the most excellent and very useful information.
Some of the fare & journey calculations seem to have changed perhaps
for the better or worse ? Expanding on what Mizter T said about
changing at Willesden J and touching out and then in again. Well, in
the past I have touched out and then back in again in quick
succession, at several different stations and this has not registered
on my card, e.g. last year I travelled from Camden Road - Stratford
( via LO) , touched out at Stratford for less than 5 minutes, met a
friend, touched in again and we both continued on to Mile End.
Inspection of my Oyster usage showed that I was charged for Camden
Road - Mile End journey, with no reference to Stratford. Hence, on
Saturday's journey I thought perhaps such quick touching out and back
in to try to force a z2-6 cap ( at both Willesden J and Stratford)
would not count as a journey. I have read other examples where
passengers have quickly got out of a station to pick up some dry
cleaning or shopping, touched back in again within a space of 0-15
mins and not been charged for this break of journey nor has this break
been registered /noted on their Oyster usage. On Saturday my
assumptions of past experiences were wrong. Touching out and back in
at Stratford ( I was outside Stratford for less than 2 mins) did now
register as a journey as would have doing the same at WJ.
Consequently, I was charged a separate Stratford - Camden Rd fare,
which on last years experience I may have not been charged. Also last
year Willesden Junction - Stratford was priced as a via Z1 fare. I
think there was a lot of debate over this and other NLL/WLL//LO
oyster pricing of fares in another forum. ( courtesy of Yorkie(?) )
Mizter T. I caught the 12.17 from SB to WJ and had a 2 min wait at
WJ for the 12.29 train to Stratford. I think I may have been cutting
it short if I attempted touching out and then back in again !
Just as a footnote. Just after Xmas I was wrongly charged for a South
Ruislip - Clapham Junction ( via Central line and changing at
Shepherd's Bush onto LO to CJ). I was charged double the fare but was
recently reimbursed. Customer services staff explained to me that
there had been some gating problems at Shepherd's Bush ( LO ) which
have now been resolved.

thanks in advance
:-)

wrote:

Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for the most excellent and very useful information.
Some of the fare & journey calculations seem to have changed perhaps
for the better or worse ? Expanding on what Mizter T said about
changing at Willesden J and touching out and then in again. Well, in
the past I have touched out and then back in again in quick
succession, at several different stations and this has not registered
on my card, e.g. last year I travelled from Camden Road - Stratford
( via LO) , touched out at Stratford for less than 5 minutes, met a
friend, touched in again and we both continued on to Mile End.
Inspection of my Oyster usage showed that I was charged for Camden
Road - Mile End journey, with no reference to Stratford.

Question - when you say you touched-out and back in at Stratford last
year, did you go all the way outside through the main gateline and out
on to the street outside the station entrance?

In this situation there is a difference between touching-out/in on the
standalone Oyster validators that are *within* Stratford station (i.e.
within the fare paid area inside the gates) and leaving and then re-
entering the station through the gates. It sounds to me as though you
may have just used one of these 'interchange validators' (more on this
later).


Hence, on
Saturday's journey I thought perhaps such quick touching out and back
in to try to force a z2-6 cap (at both Willesden J and Stratford)
would not count as a journey. I have read other examples where
passengers have quickly got out of a station to pick up some dry
cleaning or shopping, touched back in again within a space of 0-15
mins and not been charged for this break of journey nor has this break
been registered /noted on their Oyster usage.

OK. My understanding is that if you exit and then re-enter *the same
station* *through an automatic gate* then this will finish your
previous journey and start a new journey.

At stations where there are no gates, just standalone Oyster
validators, the situation might be different. At these stations it
*might possibly* be the case that if you touch-out and then touch-in
after a short space of time your journey is considered as continuing.
This basically depends on how the standalone Oyster validators are
configured - they can either be set up to simply end journeys when
they detect there is an 'open journey' on the card (i.e. it has been
touched-in somewhere else), or if no existing journey is detected then
they will start a new journey. (This is how most of the standalone
Oyster validators work at DLR stations - plus I think it's how they're
generally set up at other ungated stations which aren't significant
interchange points.)

Otherwise they can be set as 'interchange validators' - touching-in on
these doesn't finish a journey that has already started, instead it
tells the card that the journey may be finished, or it may carry on to
somewhere else. In other words if you don't touch-out somewhere else
in the next hour or two then the journey will be considered as having
finished, if you do touch-out somewhere else then the journey will be
extended on to that next station.

And because of the way the system is currently set up, it means that
you will only be charged for the journey between your starting station
and your ultimate destination station - hence the fact that you got
charged for a direct Camden Road to Mile End journey, despite the fact
that you touched on a standalone Oyster validators in Stratford
station (at least that's what I'm assuming you did - right?).
Thankfully though this situation looks likely to change in the near
future which will mean that Oyster will be capable of charging cheaper
fares for cheaper routes.

Another situation where one might well only get charged for one
journey despite going off and doing other things in between is where a
person exits from one station, let's say Shepherd's Bush (Central
line), goes and does there stuff (returning some hideous pink and lime
green footwear bought during a lapse of taste at a shop in Westfield),
and then goes and gets on a train from Shepherd's Bush LO/ WLL
station. As the two Shepherd's Bush stations are tied together as an
out-of-station interchange (OSI, or 'outerchange' as we often
colloquially call them on here) then the system will consider the
previous journey as being continued.

Note that there is a time limit to how long the OSI stays 'live' on
the Oyster card - in other words how long you've got to get from one
station to the next - but TfL often set this very generously for ultra
slow people (or people who get lost, say in Hammersmith between the
District/Pic station and the H&C station!).


On Saturday my
assumptions of past experiences were wrong. Touching out and back in
at Stratford ( I was outside Stratford for less than 2 mins) did now
register as a journey as would have doing the same at WJ.
Consequently, I was charged a separate Stratford - Camden Rd fare,
which on last years experience I may have not been charged.

This time you went all the way out of the main gates and then back in
right? Unlike the standalone Oyster validators there's nothing
ambiguous about exiting through some gates and then re-entering the
same gates.

Note that gates can be set to allow for an OSI of course - this is how
they are set up at the two Shepherd's Bush stations (the cause of all
these issues in the first place!). In cases such as this, leaving one
station and continuing from the other will obviously simply extend the
original journey.

There's an Excel spreadsheet list of OSIs here (thanks to Walter
Briscoe and others who asked TfL for them) - I've created a TinyURL
because the original is massive:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/dd7dka

(Excel spreadsheets can be viewed using a free Excel viewer or also
via the free online Google Docs service.)


Also last
year Willesden Junction - Stratford was priced as a via Z1 fare.
think there was a lot of debate over this and other NLL/WLL//LO
oyster pricing of fares in another forum. ( courtesy of Yorkie(?) )

I believe TfL have indeed made a number of changes regarding what
routes the system assumed people took between stations. I'd think this
was because via z1 fares were being charged for some NLL journeys,
such as Willesden Jn to Stratford.


Mizter T. I caught the 12.17 from SB to WJ and had a 2 min wait at
WJ for the 12.29 train to Stratford. I think I may have been cutting
it short if I attempted touching out and then back in again !

Indeed! Either one or the other (or both!) trains were late running,
or else the timetables were different for whatever time you were
travelling. By the by, I do think Fig's idea of taking the 266 bus
from North Acton to Willesden Jn is a good one - it's a very short bus
journey on a frequent, reliable main route, and it would sidestep all
these issues about fares.


Just as a footnote. Just after Xmas I was wrongly charged for a South
Ruislip - Clapham Junction ( via Central line and changing at
Shepherd's Bush onto LO to CJ). I was charged double the fare but was
recently reimbursed. Customer services staff explained to me that
there had been some gating problems at Shepherd's Bush ( LO ) which
have now been resolved.

I presume you were charged an off-peak £1 or £1.10 fare twice then
(that's last year's and this year's fares). That's interesting, it
sounds as though there was some issue with the OSI facility being set
up on the Shepherd's Bush gates. If there was indeed such a mistake
then it's a bit shabby that these things happen. There have been a
number of times which involved incorrect data being sent out across
the system when updates occurred - I wonder if this was possible the
result of dodgy data being included when the new fares information was
being sent out? (The timing would appear to fit.)


thanks in advance
:-)

No problem.

I have one last solution for you, by the way - and I think you might
like it!

Because Oyster PAYG fares are currently charged based on the origin
and destination stations and disregard any intermediate touch-ins on
standalone Oyster *interchange* validators (i.e. ones *within*
stations that exist for interchange passengers - they are actually
really for people swapping between Oyster PAYG and paper tickets),
then what you could do is go from Shepherd's Bush/ Willesden Jn to
Stratford, touch-in on a standalone Oyster validator *within* the
station (e.g. next to the NLL platforms) but *don't* exit the
station's main gates. You could then meet your friend within Stratford
station and continue back along the NLL to Camden Road (or wherever) -
I'm pretty sure the Oyster system would then charge you for a
Shepherd's Bush/ Willesden Jn to Camden Road journey and would
disregard the Stratford touch-in.

And it would be completely legit because you would have touched-in at
Stratford - indeed, you can touch-in as many times you want on all the
different interchange validators there and it wouldn;t make a
difference! And *all* the standalone Oyster validators at Stratford
are set up as interchange validators (apart from the one next to the
manual gate to get in and out of the station) - and yes I have tested
this very recently!

Of course this 'solution' will only work until the PAYG system is
upgraded, likely later on this year - when this happens, interchanging
between the Central line and WLL Shepherd's Bush should ensure you pay
the cheaper non-z1 fare but it would also mean that touching-in at
Stratford is likely to mean you pay for a journey out to zone 3. In
your case this wouldn't matter though, as you'd be in line for the
z2-6 cap anyway. But it will be interesting to see whether a journey
from Greenford (z4) to Camden Rd (z2) with an intermediate touch-in at
Stratford (z3) would count as one continuous journey, or two separate
journeys (Greenford - Stratford, then Stratford - Camden Rd).

I hope that helps - sorry this post is so epic in length!

On 16 Feb, 13:17, Mizter T wrote:

[*massive* snip]

I have one last solution for you, by the way - and I think you might
like it!

Because Oyster PAYG fares are currently charged based on the origin
and destination stations and disregard any intermediate touch-ins on
standalone Oyster *interchange* validators (i.e. ones *within*
stations that exist for interchange passengers - they are actually
really for people swapping between Oyster PAYG and paper tickets),
then what you could do is go from Shepherd's Bush/ Willesden Jn to
Stratford, touch-in on a standalone Oyster validator *within* the
station (e.g. next to the NLL platforms) but *don't* exit the
station's main gates. You could then meet your friend within Stratford
station and continue back along the NLL to Camden Road (or wherever) -
I'm pretty sure the Oyster system would then charge you for a
Shepherd's Bush/ Willesden Jn to Camden Road journey and would
disregard the Stratford touch-in.

And it would be completely legit because you would have touched-in at
Stratford - indeed, you can touch-in as many times you want on all the
different interchange validators there and it wouldn;t make a
difference! And *all* the standalone Oyster validators at Stratford
are set up as interchange validators (apart from the one next to the
manual gate to get in and out of the station) - and yes I have tested
this very recently!

Of course this 'solution' will only work until the PAYG system is
upgraded, likely later on this year - when this happens, interchanging
between the Central line and WLL Shepherd's Bush should ensure you pay
the cheaper non-z1 fare but it would also mean that touching-in at
Stratford is likely to mean you pay for a journey out to zone 3. In
your case this wouldn't matter though, as you'd be in line for the
z2-6 cap anyway. But it will be interesting to see whether a journey
from Greenford (z4) to Camden Rd (z2) with an intermediate touch-in at
Stratford (z3) would count as one continuous journey, or two separate
journeys (Greenford - Stratford, then Stratford - Camden Rd).


Just to be crystal clear about this last point. At present, a
Shepherd's Bush (LO/ WLL) to Stratford journey is charged as being via
z1 regardless of the fact that the passenger might have travelled via
the WLL and NLL - that's daft, but that's the way it is at the moment.
However a Shepherd's Bush (LO/ WLL) to Camden Road journey is charged
as a cheaper zone 2 journey.

My contention is that if a passenger was to go from Shepherd's Bush
(LO/ WLL) to Stratford, touch-in on an Oyster interchange validator
*within the station* and *stay within the station* - i.e. did not exit
and then re-enter the station through the main gates - then backtrack
on the NLL to Camden Road and exit, the system would only charge them
for a Shepherd's Bush (LO/ WLL) to Stratford journey. This would mean
they would be eligible for the z2-6 cap.

If however the passenger exited Stratford station out through the main
gates, they would be charged for a via z1 journey and would then only
be eligible for a z1-4 cap.

As I state above, the situation whereby a Shepherd's Bush (LO/ WLL) to
Stratford journey gets charged for a via z1 journey despite taking the
zone 2 route should hopefully be cleared up with the upcoming PAYG
system upgrade.

Probably best to reply to my previous post rather than this one to
avoid confusion, unless there's a specific point in this one that
anyone wants to raise.