wrote:

I thought Crossrail was being built? Because they have already started work,
are you saying this work could be stopped?

That is what happened to the Channel Tunnel in 1970-something.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Sep 8, 7:19*am, wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Sep 8, 8:59 am, JP wrote:

EU has lent £1bn towards Crossrail according to Mayor Boris

Excerpt from today's TfL press release:

"The Crossrail project received a major boost today as Transport for
London (TfL) announced that it has agreed a £1bn loan with the
European Investment Bank (EIB) to finance part of their contribution
to Europe's largest construction project."

Read the rest of it hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/12515.aspx

Apparently it is "one of the largest loans ever secured for a
transport project".

Of course the big hurdle that Crossrail has yet to pass is the
comprehensive public spending review that's going to be instituted by
Cameron and Osbourne when they inevitably gain power next year.

I thought Crossrail was being built? Because they have already started work,
are you saying this work could be stopped?

Has actual tunneling started? I thought it was just station boxes
under other construction and the like?

On Sep 8, 9:04*am, Robert wrote:
On 2009-09-08 16:42:49 +0100, 1506 said:





On Sep 8, 3:08*am, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Sep 8, 8:59*am, JP wrote:

EU has lent £1bn towards Crossrail according to Mayor Boris

Excerpt from today's TfL press release:

"The Crossrail project received a major boost today as Transport for
London (TfL) announced that it has agreed a £1bn loan with the
European Investment Bank (EIB) to finance part of their contribution
to Europe's largest construction project."

Read the rest of it hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre
/12515.aspx

Apparently it is "one of the largest loans ever secured for a
transport project".

Of course the big hurdle that Crossrail has yet to pass is the
comprehensive public spending review that's going to be instituted by
Cameron and Osbourne when they inevitably gain power next year.

[x-posted to misc.transport.urban-transit]

One also has to ask the question: "What does the EU expect in return
for their investment"?

Not the EU but the European Investment Bank. A different animal.

Thanks that was not clear from the OP.

And the answer is... Their money back later, with interest.

Much as I believe Cross rail is needed, I think repayment may take a
while. This will be an expensive project. The UK economy will be
week for some time to come (three more years, perhaps).

On Sep 8, 9:04*am, Robert wrote:
On 2009-09-08 16:42:49 +0100, 1506 said:





On Sep 8, 3:08*am, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Sep 8, 8:59*am, JP wrote:

EU has lent £1bn towards Crossrail according to Mayor Boris

Excerpt from today's TfL press release:

"The Crossrail project received a major boost today as Transport for
London (TfL) announced that it has agreed a £1bn loan with the
European Investment Bank (EIB) to finance part of their contribution
to Europe's largest construction project."

Read the rest of it hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre
/12515.aspx

Apparently it is "one of the largest loans ever secured for a
transport project".

Of course the big hurdle that Crossrail has yet to pass is the
comprehensive public spending review that's going to be instituted by
Cameron and Osbourne when they inevitably gain power next year.

[x-posted to misc.transport.urban-transit]

One also has to ask the question: "What does the EU expect in return
for their investment"?

Not the EU but the European Investment Bank. A different animal.

And the answer is... Their money back later, with interest.

Thanks that was not clear from the OP.

And the answer is... Their money back later, with interest.

Much as I believe Cross rail is needed, I think repayment may take a
while. This will be an expensive project. The UK economy will be
weak for some time to come (three more years, perhaps).

On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:18:43 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

wrote:

I thought Crossrail was being built? Because they have already started work,
are you saying this work could be stopped?

That is what happened to the Channel Tunnel in 1970-something.


That isn't quite the same as what happened to the Channel Tunnel in, I
think, 1974. The Channel Tunnel wasn't cancelled, it just never got
the go-ahead to start.

There was a feasibility study and associated demonstration project
under way when Harold Wilson's Labour government came into power in
1974. It was hoped that, based on the success of the demonstration
project, the construction of the Channel Tunnel would be authorised as
a joint British/French publicly financed project.

The feasibility study showed that a tunnel could have been built
through the chalk marl. The demonstration project was a success and
showed that a tunnelling machine could excavate and line a short
section of the small diameter service tunnel in competent chalk marl.
But that's all it showed.

When Labour came to office, the country was on a three day week with
rotating power cuts for all but essential services. The government's
tax take had fallen dramatically because industrial production had
been badly disrupted due to the coal miners' strike, reducing
corporation tax receipts, and because working hours were much
reduced, reducing income tax. In short, there wasn't any money, and a
grandiose project like the Channel Tunnel was never going to be given
the go-ahead at a time like that.

So the demonstration project was completed and the feasibility study
was written up. The tunnel workings were then sealed. Then nothing
happened, literally.

Nothing was "cancelled", because there was nothing to cancel.

With the benefit of hindsight, we can now say that it was probably a
good thing that the project didn't get the go-ahead at that time. The
ground investigation had been rather perfunctory and some major
geological problems were missed.

Subsequently, in the 1980s, a more detailed ground investigation was
carried out. This also failed to identify geological problems on the
English side which caused serious problems when the project was under
way. The detailed ground investigation successfully identified some
even more severe problems on the French side. As a result, the French
tunnelling contractors invested a lot of money in very sophisticated
machines which offered full support of the excavated face with a
bentonite slurry.

This was a slower and more costly method of tunnelling but the French
tunnellers coped with everything the ground conditions threw at them
and more or less stayed on programme. Indeed, they went so well
compared to our tunnellers that they continued far beyond the original
agreed point and into English territory.

On the English side, a more optimistic view was taken and face support
was not included. In the event, the ground conditions were not as bad
as on the French side, but bad enough that the lack of face support
and huge ingress of water caused severe delays to the tunnelling.

Had the Channel Tunnel been given the go-ahead in 1974, the optimistic
view would have prevailed on both sides because of the inadequate site
investigation, and the sophisticated machines used by the French were
not available at that time. So there would have been major problems -
even worse than in the Tunnel that was built - and the whole cost
would have been borne by taxpayers, which would have been a disaster.
It is quite possible that the project would have had to have been
abandoned until better technology became available.

In the event, the problems were mainly confined to the English side,
and the whole of the massive cost overrun was borne by investors in
Eurotunnel and the lending banks, sparing the taxpayer almost all of
the pain.

As taxpayers, I think we should be relieved that this burden did not
fall on us. With the severely damaged economy that was left to Labour
by the grossly incompetent Heath/Barber Tory government of 1970-74,
the public finances could not have sustained such a big hit.

With Crossrail, two of the three major tunnelling contracts have just
gone out to tender. So, unlike the Channel Tunnel in 1974, there *is*
a Crossrail project in place. I believe the Crossrail team are aiming
to have the tunnelling contracts let and started on site before the
general Election, in the hope that it would make the project very
difficult to cancel. We will see, ;-)

On Sep 8, 7:13*pm, 1506 wrote:

Has actual tunneling started? *I thought it was just station boxes
under other construction and the like?

No tunnelling is happening. AIUI only the Canary Wharf (aka Isle of
Dogs) station box has started construction proper. Otherwise I think
it's all pretty much various preparatory works. Tottenham Court Road
tube station is in the early stages of being reconstructed which all
links in with Crossrail, but I don't think any major Crossrail centric
works are due to happen there for a while (not too up on the TCR
timetable though I admit).

The big kick off of major construction work is yet to come.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:28:40 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:


On Sep 8, 7:13*pm, 1506 wrote:

Has actual tunneling started? *I thought it was just station boxes
under other construction and the like?

No tunnelling is happening. AIUI only the Canary Wharf (aka Isle of
Dogs) station box has started construction proper. Otherwise I think
it's all pretty much various preparatory works. Tottenham Court Road
tube station is in the early stages of being reconstructed which all
links in with Crossrail, but I don't think any major Crossrail centric
works are due to happen there for a while (not too up on the TCR
timetable though I admit).

The big kick off of major construction work is yet to come.


There will be three very large tunnelling contracts. Tenders for the
largest two of the three were invited last week. Given the scope and
complexity of the work I would guess that the tender period will be
around 3 months, so expect bids to be returned before Christmas with
an award of contract around February/March and a start on site around
May/June 2010. General Election time?

These are just guesses based on my experience of large contracts.
Someone closer to the project may have more specific dates.

On Sep 8, 9:04*am, Robert wrote:
On 2009-09-08 16:42:49 +0100, 1506 said:





On Sep 8, 3:08*am, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Sep 8, 8:59*am, JP wrote:

EU has lent £1bn towards Crossrail according to Mayor Boris

Excerpt from today's TfL press release:

"The Crossrail project received a major boost today as Transport for
London (TfL) announced that it has agreed a £1bn loan with the
European Investment Bank (EIB) to finance part of their contribution
to Europe's largest construction project."

Read the rest of it hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre
/12515.aspx

Apparently it is "one of the largest loans ever secured for a
transport project".

Of course the big hurdle that Crossrail has yet to pass is the
comprehensive public spending review that's going to be instituted by
Cameron and Osbourne when they inevitably gain power next year.

[x-posted to misc.transport.urban-transit]

One also has to ask the question: "What does the EU expect in return
for their investment"?

Not the EU but the European Investment Bank. A different animal.

And the answer is... Their money back later, with interest.

Thanks that was not clear from the OP.

And the answer is... Their money back later, with interest.

Much as I believe Cross rail is needed, I think repayment may take a
while. This will be an expensive project. The UK economy will be
weak for some time to come (three more years, perhaps).

Phew. Thanks for the re-post.

I thort the UK economy was only gonna be "weak for a week".

Mizter T wrote:

Talk that the project will be renamed "MonnetRail" is nothing other
than scurrilous rumour making...

Lacrosserail.

"1506" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 9:04 am, Robert wrote:
On 2009-09-08 16:42:49 +0100, 1506 said:





On Sep 8, 3:08 am, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Sep 8, 8:59 am, JP wrote:

EU has lent £1bn towards Crossrail according to Mayor Boris

Excerpt from today's TfL press release:

"The Crossrail project received a major boost today as Transport for
London (TfL) announced that it has agreed a £1bn loan with the
European Investment Bank (EIB) to finance part of their contribution
to Europe's largest construction project."

Read the rest of it
hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre
/12515.aspx

Apparently it is "one of the largest loans ever secured for a
transport project".

Of course the big hurdle that Crossrail has yet to pass is the
comprehensive public spending review that's going to be instituted by
Cameron and Osbourne when they inevitably gain power next year.

[x-posted to misc.transport.urban-transit]

One also has to ask the question: "What does the EU expect in return
for their investment"?

Not the EU but the European Investment Bank. A different animal.

Thanks that was not clear from the OP.

And the answer is... Their money back later, with interest.

Much as I believe Cross rail is needed, I think repayment may take a
while. This will be an expensive project. The UK economy will be
week for some time to come (three more years, perhaps).


And the iconic Sydney Harbour Bridge was finally paid for 60+ years after
completion. Crossrail will be an iconic project for London, LION Like It Or
Not!

I'm not sure of the logic of platform doors restricting rollingstock to
dedicated Xrail only; in which case one should be planning enough loading
gauge for well-type DD cars once the eastern and western arms are cleared
through.

DW downunder