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  #31   Report Post  
Old October 13th 09, 10:03 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On 13 Oct 2009 15:43:48 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:

MatSav matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com
wrote

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
, Bill Borland wrote:


black-and-white
chequered band round the cuff, and merely removing *that* meant
that


That was abolished no later than about 1965.


As I understand it, a police constable is never "off duty" -


Not so. There were some hilarious cases where police were refused
service in off-licenses and supermarkets due to a Victorian statute
that referred to constables on duty frequenting licensed premises.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/3357707.stm

A hungry policeman was banned by shop staff from buying a sausage roll
- under a law forbidding sale of refreshments for officers on duty. ==

In the past, removing the armband worked. More recently a radio
conversation with a superior officer to get a order placing them
off-duty but a chief constable was snookered because she had no
superior officer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/3569725.stm

checkout staff at Tesco in Northallerton relented when Ms Cannings took
off her hat and epaulettes and said she was no longer on duty.

although they may not be getting *paid* for their services, they
*always* carry their Warrant when in public. Unless it puts them
at personal risk of harm, they are *required* to intervene in any
situation that needs the presence of police,. I have been told
that the Warrant constitutes "uniform" - so, for example, a
constable ordering you to stop your motor vehicle can do so
simply by holding his Warrant in your view. Indeed, I've seen it
done.


May work but have you a legal cite that it is legally binding ?

A warrant card never constitutes "uniform" otherwise it would be a
nonsense for certain actions to only be lawful when exercised by a
"constable in uniform"; that requirement commonly involves motor
vehicles but also applies in other matters. There are other cases
where a constable not in uniform might be required to provide
documentary proof of him/her being a constable such as IIRC when
carrying out stop and search activities when in plain clothes or if a
BTP constable not in uniform exercises powers under s.100 of the
Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 as explained in :-
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2001/en/01en24-c.htm
where the documentary proof is not limited solely to a warrant card
(which seems more of a bootstrap to allow for somewhat unusual
circumstances).

WRT stopping motor vehicles, motorists recognising a warrant card
waved at them are not necessarily regarding it as a lawful instruction
to stop etc. so much as a request for assistance.


  #32   Report Post  
Old October 14th 09, 07:40 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.


"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On 13 Oct 2009 15:43:48 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"

wrote:

MatSav matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot |
com
wrote

As I understand it, a police constable is never "off duty" -



Not so. snip a useful explanation


WRT stopping motor vehicles, motorists recognising a warrant
card
waved at them are not necessarily regarding it as a lawful
instruction
to stop etc. so much as a request for assistance.


Thanks - it would seem you are much better informed than I was. I
consider myself corrected.

--
MatSav


  #33   Report Post  
Old October 14th 09, 03:55 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
In message , Bill Borland
wrote:
I haven't looked closely at a copper recently, but it *used* to be
the case that an essential part of the uniform was a black-and-white
chequered band round the cuff, and merely removing *that* meant that
the officer was no longer "in uniform". But that was a long time ago
and things may have changed.


That was abolished no later than about 1965.

Thank you. I'm afraid I am showing my age.
I paid attention this afternoon; all our local (Met) police were
wearing short-sleeved shirts - nowhere to attach an armband. My
goodness - that would have been quite unheard of fifty years ago.
--
Bill Borland
All the things I really like to do are either
illegal, immoral or fattening.
(Alexander Woollcott, 1887-1943)
  #34   Report Post  
Old October 14th 09, 05:01 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT), Bruce
wrote:

Quote:

Under the arrangement, officers can get to work free on all trains
from within 70 miles of London if they police the carriages.


At least we can be sure that all the police granted this free travel
privilege will have declared it ti HM Revenue and Customs and will be
paying income tax and national insurance on the vakue of the benefit
in kind.


It's not a benefit in kind to the officers, quite the opposite. They
are contributing towards their travel by providing a service during
the journey.

Even if it were, there is also the question of who is providing the
arrangement. If it is not under the control of the police authority,
it is doubtful it could be taken to be an employee benefit anyway.

Do pay attention.
  #35   Report Post  
Old October 14th 09, 06:02 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:01:21 +0100, Mr G wrote:

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT), Bruce
wrote:

Quote:

Under the arrangement, officers can get to work free on all trains
from within 70 miles of London if they police the carriages.



At least we can be sure that all the police granted this free travel
privilege will have declared it ti HM Revenue and Customs and will be
paying income tax and national insurance on the vakue of the benefit
in kind.


It's not a benefit in kind to the officers, quite the opposite. They
are contributing towards their travel by providing a service during
the journey.



I ran that past my cousin, who is an HM Inspector of Taxes, just to
get a reaction. He told me he hadn't laughed so much in years. ;-)

So thank you from me, and from him, for making us laugh. You are of
course as wrong as can be.




  #36   Report Post  
Old October 14th 09, 07:30 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Posts: 28
Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On 13 Oct, 16:43, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
MatSav matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com
wrote

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
, Bill Borland wrote:
black-and-white
chequered band round the cuff, and merely removing *that* meant
that
That was abolished no later than about 1965.

As I understand it, a police constable is never "off duty" -


Not so. There were some hilarious cases where police were refused
service in off-licenses and supermarkets due to a Victorian statute
that referred to constables on duty frequenting licensed premises.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/3357707.stm

A hungry policeman was banned by shop staff from buying a sausage roll
- under a law forbidding sale of refreshments for officers on duty. ==

*In the past, removing the armband worked. More recently a radio
conversation with a superior officer to get a order placing them
off-duty but a chief constable was snookered because she had no
superior officer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/3569725.stm

checkout staff at Tesco in Northallerton relented when Ms Cannings took
off her hat and epaulettes and said she was no longer on duty.

although they may not be getting *paid* for their services, they
*always* carry their Warrant when in public. Unless it puts them
at personal risk of harm, they are *required* to intervene in any
situation that needs the presence of police,. I have been told
that the Warrant constitutes "uniform" - so, for example, a
constable ordering you to stop your motor vehicle can do so
simply by holding his Warrant in your view. Indeed, I've seen it
done.


May work but have you a legal cite that it is legally binding ?

--
Mike D


There is no such thing in the UK police service as a superior officer,
and traffic may only be stopped by an officer in uniform. The warrant
card is a form of identification and carries certain police powers,
but if a plain clothes officer showed a warrant card and the driver
did not stop, what traffic offence has been committed? None.
  #37   Report Post  
Old October 14th 09, 07:39 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On 14 Oct, 19:02, Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:01:21 +0100, Mr G wrote:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT), Bruce
wrote:


Quote:

Under the arrangement, officers can get to work free on all trains
from within 70 miles of London if they police the carriages.



At least we can be sure that all the police granted this free travel
privilege will have declared it ti HM Revenue and Customs and will be
paying income tax and national insurance on the vakue of the benefit
in kind.


It's not a benefit in kind to the officers, quite the opposite. *They
are contributing towards their travel by providing a service during
the journey.


I ran that past my cousin, who is an HM Inspector of Taxes, just to
get a reaction. *He told me he hadn't laughed so much in years. *;-)

So thank you from me, and from him, for making us laugh. *You are of
course as wrong as can be.


No he isn't. The Inland Revenue tried to tax it, they lost the case,
your cousin needs to bone up on his subject. Family trait?
  #38   Report Post  
Old October 15th 09, 12:56 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

wrote
On 13 Oct, 16:43, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

off-duty but a chief constable was snookered because she had no
superior officer.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/3569725.stm

checkout staff at Tesco in Northallerton relented when Ms Cannings

took
off her hat and epaulettes and said she was no longer on duty.


.. There is no such thing in the UK police service as a superior
officer, {...}

The law refered to is S 178 Licensing Act 1964

.... except by authority of a superior officer of that constable.
==

There are things a police "superior officer" can't order, but "go and
get a bite to eat" isn't one of them.

--
Mike D




  #39   Report Post  
Old October 15th 09, 03:41 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Posts: 724
Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:30:02 -0700 (PDT),
" wrote:

On 13 Oct, 16:43, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
MatSav matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com
wrote

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
, Bill Borland wrote:
black-and-white
chequered band round the cuff, and merely removing *that* meant
that
That was abolished no later than about 1965.
As I understand it, a police constable is never "off duty" -


Not so. There were some hilarious cases where police were refused
service in off-licenses and supermarkets due to a Victorian statute
that referred to constables on duty frequenting licensed premises.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/3357707.stm

A hungry policeman was banned by shop staff from buying a sausage roll
- under a law forbidding sale of refreshments for officers on duty. ==

*In the past, removing the armband worked. More recently a radio
conversation with a superior officer to get a order placing them
off-duty but a chief constable was snookered because she had no
superior officer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/3569725.stm

checkout staff at Tesco in Northallerton relented when Ms Cannings took
off her hat and epaulettes and said she was no longer on duty.

although they may not be getting *paid* for their services, they
*always* carry their Warrant when in public. Unless it puts them
at personal risk of harm, they are *required* to intervene in any
situation that needs the presence of police,. I have been told
that the Warrant constitutes "uniform" - so, for example, a
constable ordering you to stop your motor vehicle can do so
simply by holding his Warrant in your view. Indeed, I've seen it
done.


May work but have you a legal cite that it is legally binding ?

--
Mike D


There is no such thing in the UK police service

There is no such thing as the UK police service. There are a number of
constabularies/forces subject to the laws of three different
jurisdictions and the permitted policies of each chief police officer.

as a superior officer,
and traffic may only be stopped by an officer in uniform. The warrant
card is a form of identification and carries certain police powers,
but if a plain clothes officer showed a warrant card and the driver
did not stop, what traffic offence has been committed? None.


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Old October 15th 09, 07:54 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london,uk.local.london
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Default Cops caught in free first class rail rap.

On 15 Oct, 01:56, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
wrote
On 13 Oct, 16:43, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:



off-duty but a chief constable was snookered because she had no
superior officer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/3569725.stm
checkout staff at Tesco in Northallerton relented when Ms Cannings

took
off her hat and epaulettes and said she was no longer on duty.


. There is no such thing in the UK police service as a superior
officer, {...}

The law refered to is S 178 Licensing Act 1964

... except by authority of a superior officer of that constable.
==

There are things a police "superior officer" can't order, but "go and
get a bite to eat" isn't one of them.

--
Mike D


The Police have senior officers, not superior officers. It is a
standard convention that every police officer starts at the same rank,
unlike for example the armed services. it's one of the first things
taught at basic training. The rank structure,the badges of rank and
that nobody in the police service is superior to anybody else, they
may be senior in rank or experience, never superior. That is why a
suitably qualified PC can be in effective command of a situation where
the superintendent stood next to him does not have the requisite
training or experience but is on hand to take over when practicable.


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