On Feb 6, 9:02*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"D7666" wrote
Again this is why I think the existing TL route is and always be a
slow speed metro route thus is better off being a sort of overground
route.

24 TPH yes, attempting to serve most of the south coast and deepest
fenlands no.

I understand the point you and MIG are making, but the opportunity to run
that sort of Thameslink as probably lost in 1916, when the original high
frequency (for those days) inner suburban to inner suburban service via the
Widened Lines collapsed (as much as anything because the paths were needed
for freight).

Is that so - I must admit I'd never really thought about the notion
that the demands from freight contributed to the demise of the Widened
Lines passenger services, that's very interesting.


North of the River, Thameslink now serves a medium-distance operation along
the MML (north of Kentish Town there are only 5 stations out to the boundary
of Zone 6), with City Thameslink almost exactly half way between Bedford an
Brighton. On the new Great Northern route, the shorter distance routes to
Welwyn and Hertford are served from Moorgate via the Northern City Line;
it's not possible to lengthen trains to Moorgate beyond 6 coaches, so
Moorgate is no use as a terminus for the longer distance GN commuter trains
to Cambridge and Peterborough. So these will have to be served from
Thameslink and/or Kings Cross. And again, Cambridge and Huntingdon are very
little further from London than Bedford or Brighton.

All very good points - the 'express' nature of the Thameslink service
along the MML in London is, as you say, quite apparent - the stations
that would have made it a metro service (Camden Road/ Haverstock Hill/
Finchley Road) all being very much closed with little remaining
thereof. I suppose they could be rebuilt, more or less from
scratch...!

Additionally I suppose there could have been some ultra radical
rethink, with extra capacity for terminating longer distance GN trains
at KX, and the (inner) suburban services pushed through Thameslink
instead of don the Northern City Line to Moorgate. Not sure what you'd
do with the NCL line then though - give it back to LU again?!

Obviously both the above are thoughts from fantasy-land, with the
usage pattern on the existing Thameslink service very much contrary to
anything of the sort!


South of the River, Thameslink designs mean that the main routes which can
be served are the London Bridge - East Croydon fast lines, with a more
limited service on the SEML, and via Elephant & Castle. But to avoid
conflicts south of Blackfriars, the Blackfriars bays are moving to the west
side, so will serve the Herne Hill route, while Thameslink will serve the
Catford Loop, which only has a limited inner suburban passenger potential..
On the Croydon corridor, the slow lines are being connected up to the ELL;
it is desirable to keep ELL and Thameslink trains as separate as possible..

The obvious point to make of course is that the above restrictions are
based on the Thameslink Programme designs, which are themselves
predicated on the notion of Thameslink being a regional, as opposed to
metro service. But, as you point out, that's what's happening!

Also I can predict Nick (D7666) will point out that the final decision
on what's going to happen to the Wimbledon loop service hasn't been
made - but AFAICS it's effectively been made if not announced, given
the re-siting at Blackfriars of the bays to the western side of the
through Thameslink running line.


So future Thameslink must be thought of mainly as a Bedford, Luton,
Huntingdon, Cambridge and Stevenage to Maidstone, Tonbridge, Brighton, etc
railway, with 5 central London stations (St Pancras, Farringdon, City
Thameslink, Blackfriars, and London Bridge). It's a bonus that it also acts
as a metro between these five stations, where it will give considerable
relief especially to the City branch of the Northern Line.

There's certainly a degree of metro-ness to the current Thameslink
service beyond those five central stations, i.e. in south London on
the existing Wimbledon loop and new Catford loop service - I've heard
lots of positive things about 'the new service to St Pancras' for
example (which of course existed in incarnations of Thameslink
services past, albeit to KX Thameslink not St P!), even if that
service dies a death in the late evening and is non-existent at
weekends.