On 2010-08-01, Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Eric
writes
On 2010-07-31, Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Eric
writes
On 2010-07-30, Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Eric
writes
On 2010-07-30, Tom Anderson wrote:

Do we in fact need a taxonomy of intolerable underground behaviour?


Perhaps, but not yours. I have removed a lot of your list, but what's
left is pretty much equivalent to saying that people with disabilities
should stay home and keep out of your way.

Er, that's one heck of a jump of reasoning from what Tom actually wrote!

Not given considerable experience of abusive and threatening behaviour
from people who disapprove of these actions when in fact our choice is
between doing that and never going anywhere. Not to say that Tom would
be abusive and threatening,

Quite.

but enough people are to make me somewhat
bitter about it all.


I am - of course - sorry to hear that. My experience of dealing with a
mobility problem (not my own) has increased considerably recently to the
point where "planning trips in detail" is now a regular activity.


My basic point is that unless you have had some sort of mobility problem
you tend to think that the tolerance and helpfulness of the world at
large is much greater than it actually is.

And my basic point is that you can't make that assumption. To believe
that only those with a mobility problem can "understand" is wrong.

I'm not saying you can't understand at some level,

Good. Because you have no right to determine what I do or don't
understand.

just that unless you
are the one with the problem (or their immediate helper), you probably
over-estimate the helpfulness of the rest of the world.

I "probably" do nothing of the sort. Just because I'm lucky enough not
to have a disability (yet) does not mean that I am somehow incapable of
understanding.

I suggest that you get the chip off your shoulder.

No one here was talking about being "delayed" by someone with a mobility
issue. They were opining that people just dozily stop at inopportune
times sometimes. This afternoon, I witnessed *exactly* that (not in
London), where two people who evidently know each other bumped into each
other in a doorway. I'll let you guess where they instantly paused to
catch up on old times.


If someone moves slowly but there's nowhere else for them to go, then
those behind will just need to wait, angry and abusive or not. I think
though that here the point being made was that slower moving people tend
to occupy unnecessarily large bits of passageways sometimes, where a
little consideration from them (ie moving to the side) would help
*everyone*. Give and take, manners and all that.

Thus showing what I mean about not getting it.

It shows nothing of the sort.


As well as slowness,
there is lack of manoeuvrability, and the stick or similar which makes
the person wider than they would otherwise be. If the stick is on the
wall side, more clearance is needed to keep the wall from interfering
than a able-bodied person would need for their own body-parts. If the
stick is on the outside, any accompanying person will quite likely be in
a protective position, making the two-person combination wider still.
This is due to the number of times the stick has actually been kicked away
by the unthinking (so far, in our case, without disastrous consequence).

Again, no one here was talking about being "delayed" by someone with a
mobility issue.


There are also the issues of not being able to pause when necessary,
and being forced to pause when not necessary, both of which are a
problem.

We live an imperfect world.

Then there's having luggage (in whatever form) as well!


As an aside, I remain genuinely surprised and delighted at the treatment
a group of (elderly but not disabled) visitors I once had to take on the
District Line were given. A crowded but not heaving carriage had no
seats and people gave up their seats in large numbers to allow them to
sit down. It made a favourable impression on them as it did on me.

I'm afraid I am cynical enough to wonder if this was a "ripple of shame"
effect from one or two considerate individuals.

Whereas I'm a pleasant enough individual just to acknowledge kindness
when I see it rather than being perennially cynical and grumpy.

Phew. Bit opinionated for me but.......hey, this is Usenet!

Happy travelling. ;-)

If this is Usenet (yes, I know, it is) then I should probably say that
the smiley will not get you out of being killfiled.

No, nobody said "delayed", not even me, but this went from specific
inconsiderate behaviour (rucksacks) to a list, which included things
which I know can be due to mobility problems. And nobody knows what goes
on in someone else's head, we only go on external evidence. You think I
have a chip on my shoulder - you might too if your partner frequently
came home crying because no-one would give her a seat and people pushed
her out of the way and ... . And that's why I am less than certain of
your (or anybody's) level of understanding.

Continued on next rock...

Eric