On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.



On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.



On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.



On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.