"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message


Nitro wrote:

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2.

When did he say that?

March 2002.

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an additional
exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square)

That's rather zigzaggy! Why not go via Holborn?

1) To serve the West End, 2) to interchange with Crossrail line one.

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

I think a lot of commuters would be upset about losing their direct
Paddington service.

OK, see what you mean.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

No an underground stop at / near the two, as in Crossrail 2 proposals

The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

Is one change really that bad? OK, where do you think my Crossrail, or
even Crossrail 2, should go from Dalstion Junction?

others to Stansted Airport.

With what stopping pattern?

Tottenham Hale, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.

Did you have a surfacing location in mind?

No.

Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms),

What's wrong with the old ones? Or are you saying that there should be
new platforms on the Victoria to Brixton line?

Are there platforms on the Wimbledon slow lines?

Clapham Junction and on to Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South
(4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and Espom (4tph).

Why stop at 4tph? And don't they already get that?

I think they get 2tph at present.

The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?).

Why?

So people can get on trains at somewhere like Vauxhall.

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

That would leave Chingford with an extremely irregular service! And why
only 2tph to Stansted? At that frequency you'd get all the disbenefits
of slower boardings (due to passengers' luggage) without the ridership
benefits that a frequent service to the airport would bring.

Unless you four track the Lee Valley line, you have to squeeze the
Stratford - Stansted / Hertford East services (to be added soon),
Cambridge / Hertford East- Liverpool Street and Stansted - Liverpool
Street.


Advantages:
· Relief for the Victoria Line,

Some, but not as much as Crossrail 2.

Maybe, but it reduces interchange at the busiest station on the line,
Victoria.

Northern Line,

True. However, this branch of the Northern Line isn't as busy as the
City branch, and the planned Cross River Tram will make it even less
crowded.

Fair enough.

Waterloo & City Line,

Hardly! A few W&C passengers might go via Temple instead, but the vast
majority would find the existing route more convenient. If you want to
relieve the W&C, a Waterloo to Liverpool Street link would be far more
effective (even though it would probably require the demolition of a few
buildings).

They also have the option of changing at Tottenham Court Road for
Crossrail 1.

the South West Trains network, the Bakerloo Line and the
District Line from Wimbledon.

Why would it have any effect whatsoever on the District Line from
Wimbledon?

As the line would be on the tube map, it may entice people onto the line
(!).
OK maybe you're right.

·

I'm curious - what was that meant to be?

Bullet Point


North East services are diverted away from Liverpool Street, but as
a result the Enfield Town / Southbury services will operate at an
increased frequency. Passengers will be able to change at Hackney
for Liverpool Street.

Quite an awkward interchange!

Could be made less akward, if the Crossrail 3 Hackney stop is well
built.

· South West branches get a better service than now, service
cannot be improved due to lack of platforms at Waterloo.

With so many trains to an undecided destination, you seem rather
reluctant to give them a better service!

See how they cope with 4tph, and if trains are overcrowded then increase
the number of trains.

· Relief to Euston, Liverpool Street and Waterloo

As is the case for almost any Crossrail service. However, Crossrail 1
(if done correctly) should remove (or at least greatly postpone) the
need for further relief to Euston and Liverpool Street.

Why Euston?

In the long term a Crossrail line will probably be needed to handle the
capacity at Waterloo, but Eurostar's planned abandonment of its current
terminal removes a lot of the urgency.

I read somewhere that when Waterloo international is abandoned they
would extend platforms to take 12 cars and some platforms at Waterloo
would disappear.

· Regeneration of Battersea, Vauxhall, Hackney, Clapton,
Wembley, Harlesden, Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Chingford,
Walthamstow, Clapham Junction and Carpenders Park.

There might be regeneration in some of those places, but by no means all
of them. Walthamstow in particular would suffer from the loss of its
direct link to the City.

Walthamstow may lose its link to the city, but there are places that
have regenerated that do not have a direct link to the city. What about
Wandsworth?

· Increased rail capacity to Camden on Sundays

But London Underground will have provided sufficient capacity long
before then anyway.

· Less line in tunnel (if the Chelsea-Hackney line is going
underground at Clapham Junction).

But going underground at Clapham Junction enables line 2 to bring rail
services to parts of Battersea and Chelsea that have not previously had
them. There is nothing comparable in your proposal.

Battersea or Chelsea. Looking at the London Plan it seems Ken would
rather the line go through Battersea. Even if Crossrail 2 goes ahead,
the part of Battersea it serves will only be a few minutes walk from
Battersea Park station.

Also, Line 2 could surface at Dalston Junction.

And go where? Do you mean Dalston Kingsland?

· A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.

There's a much cheaper (light rail) one on the drawing board!

Yes, but this may be cheaper / better than Crossrail 2 and CRT put
together.

· Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus

Just what exactly is the problem there?

Not enough space underground for a mainline station

· If platform lengthening is too costly 8 car trains could be
run instead of 12 cars.

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

Some platforms (e.g. South Hampstead) might be a problem.

Thanks for your comments.


Jeff.