Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:42:01 +0100, "PeterE"
wrote:

[snip moderate and reasonable words]

The thing is, I mostly agree with you /except/ that there is
compelling evidence that speeding, at least speeding sufficient to
cause a Gatso to trigger, is in and of itself dangerous. I would
suggest that the Gatsos are a reflection of an increasing
determination to speed, rather than the other way around.

A disturbing outbreak of agreement here. However surely it is dependent both
on the physical road environment and the circumstances at the time whether
speeding past a Gatso does, or does not, significantly increase risk (see
earlier reply to WK about the Z-curve). You can't say it *always* does, nor
can I say that it *never* does.

I first noticed seriously aggressive overtaking and extremes of
speeding in the mid 1980s, at a time when selfishness was being
promoted as socially desirable and arrogance was admired in the press.
The Gatso didn't start arriving until about 1991, and even now most
cameras I see are in locations where there is a clear and obvious
reason, outside schools and playing fields.

Certainly around where I live many of the Gatsos are on wide main roads well
away from shops and schools, often on near motorway standard dual
carriageways with no property frontages where the limit has been reduced.

In my experience I would say the noticeable increase in discourtesy and
aggression on the roads (which certainly does seem to be true) has mainly
occurred in the past ten years.

I know that not al are,
and I know that many speed limits are arbitrary - but the old
objective criteria were just as bad. You couldn't get a speed limit
in a village with narrow roads and no footways until enough people had
been killed.

I'm never totally convinced by this - surely if it was a "village" in the
usual sense of the word then it would have qualified for a speed limit
anyway. I can't think of any villages on my home patch that have never had a
speed limit, apart from one where to put up 30 signs might encourage people
to speed up.

And if the message of adhering to speed limits is to be more persuasive then
steps must be taken to make limits more consistent, and restore faith in the
speed limit setting process.

Is it possible to gain a substantially greater degree of genuine
speed limit compliance (rather than prosecution avoidance) mainly
through persuasion? I would suggest to a large degree it's a
somewhat Quixotic quest

Maybe, maybe not. My Mum has now stopped speeding, since the "if he'd
been doing 30 he would have stopped here" campaign.

But I suspect her son may have bent her ear a bit.

Speed cameras in the past have been deliberately concealed, giving
the impression that deterrence is not the first priority.

I don't know about you, but if I were inclined to speed the knowledge
that any tree could conceal a camera would be a much stronger
deterrent than knowing that all cameras are brightly coloured and
visible a mile off. Enforcement activity usually works best when it's
not widely advertised in advance.

But the cameras were inconspicuous, not totally hidden, so people found out
where they were soon enough, and the fact that they had been placed behind
signs and bushes was destructive of trust. Obviously the knowledge that any
tree could conceal a camera, and many did, would be a serious deterrent, but
it was never like that.

I would also question why so few permanent systems of SPECS cameras have
been installed even though they promote adherence to the limit throughout
the length of the road rather than just at a fixed point. They're not cheap,
but they're not that much dearer than Gatsos. So if they're so good, why are
they so few?

they are normally found on the widest, straightest, most open
stretches of roads and rarely on shopping streets or outside schools.

Not where I live, but maybe where you are.

See above. Even where it's all a reasonably appropriate 30 limit, the Gatso
tends to be where the road is widest and the houses are fewest, often also
on a downhill slope.

Also much of the pressure for lower limits and tougher enforcement
has come from organisations that are interested as much in curbing
car use as in improving safety, which in turn makes people more
likely to doubt the argument.

Ah, well, I have a degree of sympathy with their aims. Riding to work
today, first full week of the school holidays, the roads were deserted
and much more pleasant for that :-)

Maybe, but people are rightly suspicious of ulterior motives.

So it's hardly surprising that the majority of drivers play "dodge
the Gatso"

Majority? I'm not sure that most are playing that game, I think most
are simply in the habit of speeding; once the habit is broken they
would probably just drive legally and still be content.

No, drive along any road where the typical speed is more than 5 mph above
the posted limit and you'll see a ripple of brake-lights as they draw level
with the Gatso, often slowing well below the limit. Personally I regard it
as a failure of observation if I need to use the brakes.

I accept many drivers are basically just not very aware of speed limits -
hence the well-known "40 everywhere" phenomenon. I don't encounter many
other drivers who show any sign of adhering to limits - those who drive at
40 in the 40 don't slow down when entering the 30, those who drive at 30 in
the 30 don't change their speed much if at all when entering the 40 (even
where the houses markedly thin out).

It's often the less observant rather than the quickest who are more likely
to be caught.

I may be wrong, but it does seem to me as if urban speeding is in
decline at the moment. People then seem to make up for it by driving
at motorway speeds along country lanes, which is a bit hair-raising.

Oh, a quick trip around Greater Manchester would quickly disabuse you of the
notion that urban speeding is in decline.

It may amuse you to learn that last week a "yoof" got out of the passenger
door of a white van and made a "******" gesture at me, presumably because he
or his driver felt I had been driving too slowly along a very hazard-rich
stretch of urban road.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect."