London Banter - View Single Post

Alex Terrell · August 19th 04, 08:48 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway,uk.transport

(Aidan Stanger) wrote in message .. .
No, the shortage of paths is on the CTRL, as a lot more people are
expected to start using Eurostars once they run at high speeds all the
way.

They always say that. But lets assume passenger numbers treble. That
would fill six trains per hour.

I think the main point is that they don't want the domestic services to
prevent future growth in international services. They want the passenger
numbers to do far more than just treble.

What they want and what's realistic are two very different things.
Knocking 30 minutes off the journey time won't treble volumes,
especially with the rise of low cost airlines. So we still have 10 tph
for domestic services.

snip

But I still don't see the disadvantage of using the existing N Kent
Line as it serves Ebsfleet and Ebbsfleet, Rochester, Gillingham and
Chatham.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The high speed services
probably will use the existing N Kent line, and trains from Maidstone
can connect with them at Strood. However, a new route along the A2
corridor from Ebbsfleet to Cuxton would be shorter and faster than going
via Gravesend and Strood.

Maybe, but would more expensive. With 4 CTRL tph, and say 4 other tph
from Dartford to Ebbsfleet to Medway Towns to Sittingbourne, plus
Dartford to Tonbridge, the Medway towns would be adequately served.

Overall, I accept that some of the lines are not suitable for high
speed services. But that means that Ashford and Ebbsfleet need to
become hubs for normal train services (remember, CTRL will have huge
capacity), such as:

Via Ebbsfleet:
- Tonbridge to Dartford
- Dartford to Sittingbourne
- A new tram / light rail service from Ebbsfleet to Bluewater, and
ideally on to somewhere inside the M25. I haven't figured out a path,
but Bluewater seems to be a place where lots of people want to go to,
and Ebbsfleet will be a place where lots of people can go to.
- Of course, CrossRail from Isle of Dogs to Ebbsfleet

(As an aside, I'd also propose building an Olympic village
accommodation within walking distance of Ebbsfleet. That would put
athletes within ~10 minutes of Stratford. Later it could be turned
into affordable housing)

Via Ashford:
Easbourne to Ashford (currently goes only to Hastings)
Gatwick to Ashford?
Ashford to Folkstone to Dover to Ramsgate (see below)

Only from somewhere South of Maidstone West. And if the line goes
there, then why not Tonbridge.

Because the high speed trains cost far more than normal trains, so it
doesn't make sense to spend millions of pounds on the extra high speed
trains needed for the Tonbridge service when normal trains could do the
job just as well.

Point taken - I would now propose normal trains from Dartford to
Tonbridge.

I've never been able to figure out how
to get from Tunbridge Wells to Maidstone by train.

It would require reversing at Tonbridge.

I could then get From Tunbridge Wells to Maidstone or Ebbsfleet with
one change, and to Rochester with 2 changes.

snip

It would be much quicker to get to Dover via Folkestone, so I see no
point in extending using the high speed trains to run there via
Faversham if those trains are well designed.

As I understand the Dover - Folkstone tunnel is not suitable for high
speed trains. So I would run conventional trains from Ashford to
Folstone to Dover to Ramsgate, with high speed trains splitting at
Ashford to go to Folkstone and Ramsgate.

On the North Kent Line the high speed trains could get overcrowded in
the peaks if they went all the way to Ramsgate. That's part of the
reason I suggested turning them back at Rochester. That way commuters
for whom Stratford and Kings Cross are much better destinations would
have cross platform interchange at Rochester (which has double faced
platforms, unlike Chatham and Gillingham), but passengers without such a
strong preference of London termini would continue to go to Victoria.

Getting overcrowded is a sign of success and clearly something the
train operators would like. Bear in mind these could be 12 or 16 car
trains. Perhaps only half the train would continue from Rochester (or
Ebbsfleet, if Strood and Rochester stations can't take 16 carriage
trains.

I still think 2 tph to Tonbridge would be good, but if the track can't
take it, then the older trains should run Tonbridge to Dartford. (It
makes no sense to stop at Paddock Wood and Strood).

I don't know about Tonbridge, but Dartford is not a suitable terminus.

Tonbridge is as it's a major interchange. I don't know about Dartford
- pick somewhere else, bearing in mind that many commuters from west
of Ebbsfleet will also want to take CTRL.

FWIW I don't think Paddock Wood is a good choice of terminus. When BR
was originally broken up, AIUI there was planned to be a Maidstone to
Gatwick Airport microfranchise, but the plan was abandoned and the
service pattern went back to how it was before.

Buses from Strood are not the answer, as the Medway Bridge is crowded
enough already. Those passengers who want to take the bus can do so from
Maidstone.

Then more train services

The trains can't do it directly without reversing at Strood, and IIRC
the junction at Strood is flat and quite busy (and will be busier once
the high speed trains start running).

Passengers can change at Strood. As long as there's about 8 tph, and
it's cross platform, that's not too big an issue.

Why do you assume they'll only start with the "core service" option?
After all, this consultation provoked several suggestions on how to
operate the service more efficiently.

Let's hope. Have they placed rolling stock orders?

Not AFAIK. Shall we take this to uk.railway?

Agreed - and thanks for your thoughts.