Nick wrote:

"Aidan Stanger" wrote...
Nick wrote:
"Ian Jelf" wrote...
writes
I know "Londoners" find this hard to believe, but many of us don't
wanty
to be part of your high-density overpopulated sprawling urban gloom.

But people there are probably happy with their co-ordinated public
transport and - when the time comes - Freedom Passes?

Whenever I have this debate about Bexley part of Greater London or not,
the biggest noise always seems to be made about the Freedom pass!

Probably because the holders have got the most to lose, and will
fiercely resist any attempt to take it away.

Arguably, I think the freedom pass is overkill anyway; I would support
free use of local buses to moderately distant locations, trains to
central London, and maybe tube travel in Z1 off-peak. In Bexley, I
would guess that 95% of Freedom pass owners use the train and tube
extremely rarely, and probably less than 50% use the buses regularly.

Do you know any Freedom pass owners? Your guess seems wildly low!

Yes, I know lots of Freedom pass owners, many of whom drive and never use
it;

Then why do they bother claiming it?

of the rest, most just use the local buses (local as in
Bexley/Bromley/Dartford/Woolwich).

The mobility of pensioners varies enormously - some journey all around
London and beyond, while others only use one bus route, and rarely
travel any further than the supermarket nearest the bus stop two stops
away from where they live!

Of the former group, not all drive. Of those who do, not many will be
able to in the near future.

What are the actual figures? My guess is low, but I suspect it might be of
the right order.

I don't have the figures, and AFAIK nobody else does.

I don't believe pensioners
are at all bothered that they can travel to Uxbridge for free.

Maybe not Uxbridge, but certainly Kingston and Heathrow, despite the
truncation of the 726 at Bromley.

I don't think pensioners in Bexley have much interest or inclination to
travel to either of those places ;-)

Then you're wrong - some certainly do.

How many Freedom pass users regularly travel to Dartford and Bluewater
and contribute to "out-of-region" retail spend I wonder :-)

Unlike normal bus passes, Freedom passes are not valid as far as
Bluewater. However, they are valid to Dartford and Swanley on the train
as well as on the bus. Hundreds use Freedom passes to get to Dartford
and Swanley markets, but that's hardly "out of region".

Ah, that's interesting and I didn't know that - not valid beyond Dartford
for Bluewater by bus? I am quite surprised at that. I am sure pensioners
around here would love to stay on the 96 to Bluewater and not be chucked off
at Dartford. So pensioners in Bexley can travel to Uxbridge for free, but
have to pay to go a few miles to Bluewater, hmm!

In practice they're not chucked off, so many do travel to Bluewater for
free even though they're not supposed to! They have to pay to get back,
of course.

I agree with you that's it hardly out of region, but I was (pehaps too)
subltely hinting at how the daft the London/South East government regional
division is. Retail spend in Dartford and Swanley harms the spend figures
for "London" and boosts those for the "SouthEast" region.

Maybe that's true of the figures, but does that translate to any
disadvantage in reality?

For similar reasons it appears, Bexley (the council) seem absolutely
terrfied of promoting the proximity of Bluewater as a major benefit of
living in Bexley, partly because it means diverting spend outside the
borough (OK, and they want to promote their own shopping centres too, eg
Bexleyheath, I agree with that as well). However, living a few minutes
from the biggest shopping centre in Europe is a big benefit IMO.

I thought Meadowhall claimed that title, and Bluewater only claimed to
be the biggest in Britain :-)

Some people find the size of Bluewater offputting, and many would prefer
to shop in the more familliar Central London. And with freedom passes,
they can!