Dave Arquati wrote:
I was talking about the effect on people who lived in the residential
area through which the Westway was constructed.

I don't know about then but taking Portobello Road as an example (the
Westway runs close). Has it had a negative effect on that road or will
the extended CG zone have a worse effect?

Yes. That's not really a point up for debate - research is available all
over the place proving that new roads generate significant levels of new
traffic. I doubt that someone coming from Portsmouth heading north would
divert from the M25 via inner west London, although M25 congestion might
force them to do so - which would be extremely bad for the residents of
West London, who would then have to put up with long-distance traffic
passing through their area (the motorway may be segregated, but the
pollution and noise wouldn't be).

Now what journey would you now make in a car on the M25 that you could
otherwise make on public transport? There is a railway line on the
"West Cross Route" that goes from Clapham through Kensington up to
Willesden, and there's another line that goes to Harrow. Now if they
improved the service on those lines and made them better known (they
don't appear on underground maps) then more people might consider using
them.

The obvious example of traffic generation is the M25. Many people make
more journeys by car specifically because the M25 is there - it has
encouraged a vast number of orbital commutes which never existed before
it was built. An urban motorway, similarly, would encourage people to
make a car-based commute (or other journey) across inner London where
they wouldn't have done so before.

And before the M25 was built, there was much higher unemployment. And
part of this is also caused by house prices continuing to rise thus
forcing people to live further away from their place of work and make a
longer commute. People move jobs far more frequently than they used to
and can't always find a job close to home (much that we'd like to). New
industrial estates open just off these motorways because they are now
easier to get to, and land is cheaper there.

As a result, many businesses have moved out to these business parks,
they have a lot of car-parking and very poor public transport
facilities. Car-pooling would be ideal but impractical if people don't
actually start and finish work at exactly the same time each day.
However it may certainly be the way to go.

Limited funds are available, and railway and motorway projects are both
extremely expensive. It's one or the other, and the project which
increases car journeys significantly is not likely to win. "They" should
definitely improve railway (and other public transport) connections -
but they shouldn't start building urban motorways.

But roads are not just limited to cars - buses and lorries also use
them. Railways are not so environmentally friendly either, as you need
electrification and normally that means overhead cables. You need far
more land. Crossing them is much harder, and generally they can take
you only to one place.

Either way, it's very expensive, with new road costs now in the many
millions of pounds per kilometre.

Good investment though. It cost a lot of money to build the GWR too,
but now as a result we have it.

Firstly, since a new road will generate new traffic that surrounding
roads will have to absorb, a new road project is only likely to cut
traffic queues on certain parts of the network for a certain number of
years before the situation worsens again (see the M25 and associated
widening projects).

If the road is good then there'll be no need for rat-running. But it
may generate more business in the area (as it will be easier to get
access) so more business will open, more superstores, etc, and you may
get people leaving the main road to use the facilities.

Secondly, when factoring in revenue lost through congestion, it's time
to start factoring in the increased cost of pollution-related illness
and disbenefits and road accidents, as well as the less-easily
quantifiable social exclusion and general environmental effects.

But the optimal speed for reducing pollution is 56mph. Going through
urban streets at an average of 12mph stop/start is thus very much more
polluting.


Other people are debating the truth in that, but, as always, junctions
often limit capacity on a network, and urban motorways will have plenty
of those. In addition, although a smaller point, it's worth noting that
the road capacity as described is only available to those with access to
a car, whereas rail capacity is (theoretically) available to all.

But if they also ran buses on those routes that would also be available
to all.

The congestion charge raises money to fund public transport
improvements, not the roads.

which seems to be more silly bus routes, carrying 8 passengers or so,
going down narrow roads totally inappropriate for a bus, stopping
everytime something comes the other way, still very poor service come
6-7pm (when many are still commuting home from work).

I'd rather see more express bus routes, infrequent stops, going along A
roads, particularly primary ones (generally more orbital).

Nope... but I lived next to a motorway for 18 years, and I wouldn't wish
it upon anyone. I live in the west of London (which already has urban
motorways, one of which is extremely close to my home), but I don't
drive (and neither do a large number of people in this are) - and
therefore I get a rather disproportionate share of the disbenefits of
urban motorways compared to the benefits.

I live close to the end of the M1 and close to where the A406 meets the
A1 and the A41 is also close by so I am surrounded by primary dual
carriageways. That actually makes car travel fairly convenient (while
the Northern Line is useful only if you want to go to Central London or
to Edgware). Most of the residents would prefer to see the old plans of
the A406 tunnel go ahead. I think it would be satisfactory simply to
have the A406 connect at both ends of the A1 via a tunnel without any
other tunnel links at all - it would at least reduce a vast amount of
the traffic at that junction.

I worked as a minicab driver for about 18 months between July 2002 and
the end of 2003.