Tom Anderson wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006, TheOneKEA wrote:

On Oct 9, 11:54 am, "Kev" wrote:
TheOneKEA wrote:

For that matter, how will the tracks themselves be positioned? One
smart thing to do would be to run them down the centre of the
formation, so that in case patronage begins to pick up significantly,
a set of outside loops can be built at the stations and new platforms
added, to permit non-stopping of trains.

Funniest thing that I have read in ages, the prospect of the Eat London
Line being so busy it will need to be quadrupled. You would still have
the double track bottleneck to the south.

How about some sort of freight use? The NLL isn't just for people, you
know. However, i'm not sure where the southern end would be; Bishopsgate
is hardly the freight hub it once was, and there's no obvious way beyond
it: the Great Eastern is too busy (and you can get there via Stratford
already), and the East London line itself is never going to be four-track
south of there. You could always go down into some point-defeatingly
expensive tubes, i suppose. The big London freight study a while ago did
say we needed a new Thames crossing to get freight from the Kent ports to
the north without faffing around on the south London commuter lines and
the WLL; might as well build it here as out at Tilbury (yes, i know, it'd
still play merry hell with the Dartford lines).


I think it'd be far preferable to get as much rail freight traffic as
possible on routes that avoid going through London. I've not read the
freight study but an out of town link across the Thames, such as at
Tilbury, sounds good.

Alternatively, whack in a second portal or a flyover or whatever, and run
Shoreditch - Highbury & Islington - Willesden Junction as another
Crossrail branch!


As if Crossrail isn't expensive enough already!

While we're on the subject of the ELLX, two questions, slightly more
serious. Firstly, what happens between the Shoreditch High Street edge of
the old Bishopsgate yard and the old Broad Street viaduct? There's a
hundred metres or so which isn't on the viaduct, and is currently (?)
occupied by buildings. Secondly, what's going to happen to the stub of
viaduct south of the junction with the answer to the first question?


Re your first question - I don't know the details but it would indeed
seem that some building demolition is necessary. See the route map in
the Spring '06 ELLX brochure [1] and the ELLX pages on the TfL London
Rail website [2]. Re your second question - the stub of the viaduct
might contain business premises in the arches, I don't know, I'll take
a look next time I'm around there. Presumably it could be knocked down
and built on, though I'd imagine such a redevelopment would be
expensive given the difficulty of demolition so close to the busy
tracks out of Liverpool Street (look at an aerial photo [1] to see this
for yourself)

Oh, third question: what was on the Bishopsgate site between 1964, when i
understand it closed as a goods yard, and the time ELLX construction
started? It seems inconceivable that a site that size so close to Livepool
Street didn't get turned into an office block. I suppose this 'City
fringes' business is all quite new.


The Sub Brit website has several fascinating pages and photos
concerning Bishopsgate Goods Yard [4]. On it Nick Catford says:

"Eventually some uses were found for the former goods station; an
unlicenced car breaker set up in business at the east end of the goods
yard while the top of the ramp up from Shoreditch High Street was used
as a car park. The lower level roadway west of Wheler Street was also
adapted as an 'underground' car park."

I'd guess that any development there would be expensive, given the fact
it is located over the tracks out of Liverpool Street. And the focus of
80's development was more central within, such as the Broadgate
development on the site of Broad Street station. As you say,
developments on the fringes of the City are a relatively new thing.

The ELLX was proposed by LU in 1989, which has presumably meant a
certain amount of safeguarding in relation to Bishopsgate Goods Yard.


Fourth question! How did Broad Street once function as it apparently did
as a terminus of the Great Northern? How do you get from Finsbury Park to
Broad Street? Ah, no, i see - there's a curve from just below Drayton Park
to the NLL. Isn't that single-track, though?


The "Canonbury Curve" (search for it on uk.railway) used to be a two
track railway. If you look through the fence opposite of Drayton Park
station you'll see that the trackbed and tunnel do have space for two
tracks.

Genuine fourth question: was anything of industrial archaeology salvaged
from Bishopsgate, and if so, where will it be put on display?

Fifth question: goods yards with two rail levels: who on earth thought of
that? Do they still do that anywhere? Madness!



Dunno about these questions but again I'd say turn to Sub Brit which
may answer your queries (I read it a while ago and I can't remember
what it says). Interesting method of counting to 6 you have!

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[1]
http://ellp.tfl.gov.uk/UserFiles/Fil...(Final)(1).pdf
or via shortURL http://tinyurl.com/mwdp3

[2] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiativ...oduction.shtml

[3] http://tinyurl.com/qodww

[4]
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...on/index.shtml