Rupert Goodwins wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I've thought about this a bit more and my above explanation (with the
Tottenham Hale via Highbury & Islington to Camden Road example)
could've been a bit clearer.

The critical point is that if you're using PAYG for any portion of your
Tube journey you must touch in and out at the place where you move from
PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.

In the case of the example I gave, this is at Highbury & Islington -
you move from the PAYG territory of the Tube to the non-PAYG territory
of the NLL. Thus at Highbury & Islington you need to touch-out from the
Tube network to tell the system you've finished your Tube journey.

OK - this is where I have problems! The journey you describe is exactly
the one I quite often do, and which has always puzzled me - I don't
know where on the interchange between the Victoria Line and the NLL
line at H&I the magic card reader is. I'll have to look next time I'm
there. I don't think the 'always touch in and touch out' reminder works
very well in these locations, at least not for me, because there's no
sense of changing in or out of anything.

The magic Oyster reader at High & I (actually I think there are two at
least) is IIRC located on the main concourse passageway (it's actually
a bridge over the NLL below) near the ticket gateline - so coming from
the Victoria line it's the concourse at at the top of the escalators,
and from the NLL the concourse at the top of the stairs. They are
there!

I agree that the always touch in/out message doesn't really cover this
situation. It's hard to word a message that would cover such a scenario
- you just need to think that this is the point where you switch from
the PAYG territory to non-PAYG territory.


The
Oyster system doesn't care what you do on the NLL, as it's not PAYG
territory. Of course an NLL ticket inspector cares about this - but as
you have a zones 1&2 Travelcard which covers your High & I to Camden
Road journey he'd be happy too.


As long as I haven't strayed through the Hampstead Heath Zone 3
Wormhole, eh? (another bugbear).

Completely agree your thoughts on that - it's a major pain in the arse.
Hampstead Heath used to be in zone 2 but then when when rail
privatisation was looming it was changed to a zone 3 station to ensure
the line's operator got a higher take from ticket sales plus a bigger
slice of the Travelcard revenue cake. I think it was at the same time
that Willesden Junction was moved from being a station in both zone 2/3
to being zone 3 only.

I'll be blunt and say that I think it highly likely there are many
people who are holders of Zones 1&2 Travelcards who take their chances
and pass through Hampstead Heath on the NLL when travelling between
zone 2 stations without buying an excess fare. I think it very possible
there are a good number of people who don't even realise they're
supposed to buy an excess fare - starting station is zone 2 (e.g. West
Hampstead), destination station is zone 2 (High & I), thus if one
hasn't actually followed the course of the NLL on a zonal map logic
would suggests a zone 2 Travelcard would suffice.

Until (I think) January or February 2006 Silverlink didn't even operate
a penalty fare scheme! Thus getting on the NLL without a ticket was
fine (including getting on without having paid the excess to pass
through Hampstead Heath) - and on my occasional travels on the line I
never saw a conductor selling tickets on the train. I haven't seen any
on-board ticket inspections since then either, though I have seen them
at stations (at Willesden Junction the passageways between the
Bakerloo/Euston-Watford platforms and the high-level NLL platforms
seems to be a favourite haunt).

I hope that when TfL take over they'll address this situation -
Hampstead Heath should definitely go back into zone 2, and the
situation at Willesden Junction should be reviewed. If there's a real
need to put some of the line in a different zone for revenue purposes
it shouldn't be by using these zone 3 'islands' - instead perhaps Acton
Central could be moved from zone 2 to zone 3?

When PAYG is adopted on the NLL (in late 2007/early 2008) then you
won't need to touch-out at High & I, you'll just be able to continue
onto the NLL as your whole journey (both the Victoria line and the NLL)
will be within PAYG territory. When this happens, touching out at
Camden Road will suffice - **but please note this is _not_yet_ the
case, so don't try it tomorrow!**

It's not a question of trying it, it's a matter of trying to remember
what is a fairly abstruse quirk of the zoning rules in time to avoid
being nabbed.

Thanks. I know this will all be sorted out in the end, but... hey, you
know.

Yes, the situation is far from ideal. At least the NLL will adopt PAYG
fairly soon - though unfortunately similar situations will persist
elsewhere in London where PAYG territory intersects with non-PAYG
territory at various Tube-NR interchanges.

However I guess one could look at it this way - Oyster PAYG would still
be a pipe dream if TfL were waiting for the NR TOCs to agree to it.
Paul Corfield worked on the Prestige project for LU (Prestige is
basically the overall ticketing system of which Oyster is a part), and
he's said that it was very difficult getting any of the TOCs to take
the project seriously in the late 90's.

However under the revenue framework in which the TOCs operated it
wasn't really in their interest to commit to Oyster PAYG - it needed
central government, who had the franchise agreements with the TOCs, to
make Oyster PAYG acceptance a condition of that franchise. The
government (through the DfT) has only just made an undertaking to this
effect earlier this year, though the timescale for this to happen is
still a bit hazy in my mind. It seems that PAYG acceptance will go live
on a TOC-by-TOC basis (much to the confusion of everyone!).

By forging ahead with it Oyster PAYG on the Tube, DLR, buses and trams
TfL has to a certain extent forced the hand of the DfT into being more
amenable to making PAYG a requirement on NR in London, rather than just
going along with the less-than-satisfactory status quo.

quick rant Still, if it takes this long to sort out this issue then
the DfT's words on "integrated transport" are just that - words, with
no actions to back them up. With this attitude from the top god help
the rest of the country which doesn't have the likes of TfL to provide
strong leadership (and of course everywhere but London has had the
curse of bus deregulation put upon it)./quick rant